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Marc Benioff joins Valley notables backing Gaza’s first coding academy

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Re: Marc Benioff joins Valley notables backing Gaza’s first coding academy

#91
post #27
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Israel has no interest in Gaza The two bombardments by Israel over the last few years and the fact that Gaza is still a prison city (in the 21st century!) makes me think otherwise. > they just want them to stop trying to attack And the best way to do that is to carpet bomb the city every few years and deny it aid after doing so. I'm certain that the many children who lost their entire families will love Israel fore…

Gaza has chosen a confrontational attitude with their neighbors Egypt and Israel. When Israel withdrew from Gaza they proceeded to promptly demolish the greenhouses that Israel left (and I believed donors actually purchased for them). Next was lynching their fellow Palestinians who happened to support Fatah rather than Hamas. Tunneling under the borders. Rocket attacks ... For sure there are two sides to the story an…

picture I have of greenhouses (if wrong please correct and provide links)

- at time of withdrawal settlers were required to depart

- settlers wanted more money to leave greenhouses behind

- didn't get it from Israeli government, started demolishing

- Western philanthropists purchased remaining greenhouses and donated

- When Israelis withdrew, some greenhouses were looted

- some remained in operation, until inability to export produce through checkpoint to Israeli made them unviable

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/15/world/middleeast/israeli-s...

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/9331863/ns/world_news-mideast_n_af...

Re: Marc Benioff joins Valley notables backing Gaza’s first coding academy

#92
post #86
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Israel has no interest in Gaza, they just want them to stop trying to attack This is false and one-sided. Likud, the ruling party in Israel, has in its platform an explicit denial of the right for a Palestinian state to exist west of the Jordan river.[1] Everything you've heard about Palestinians/Hamas denying Israel the right to exist is actually true about Israel as well towards Palestine. (In fact Hamas has stat…

The Likud is not the "ruling party" in Israel. Israel's government is a coalition of multiple parties. The platform of any individual party does not equate to the official position of the state of Israel. Israel had right wing and left wing governments and the path towards a solution giving Palestinians control over the the west bank and Gaza goes back to Menahem Begin who was a prime minister from the Likud who sign…

The U.N. votes are nearly unanimous, like 150-2, and include all the democratic states (apart from Israel and the U.S.) It's pretty clear what the democratic world thinks of Israel's treatment of the Palestinians.

As for the claim that Israel has supported a two-state solution under Barak's leadership:

"the Camp David proposals divided the West Bank into virtually separated cantons, and could not possibly be accepted by any Palestinian leader... After the collapse of these negotiations, Clinton recognised that Arafat’s reservations made sense, as demonstrated by the famous 'parameters', which, though vague, went much further towards a possible settlement... After that, high-level Israeli-Palestinian negotiators proceeded to take the Clinton parameters as 'the basis for further efforts,' and addressed their 'reservations' at meetings in Taba through January. These produced a tentative agreement, meeting some of the Palestinian concerns... Problems remained, but the Taba agreements went much further towards a possible settlement than anything that had preceded. The negotiations were called off by [Israeli Prime Minister] Barak, so their possible outcome is unknown."[1]

So the initial offer (separated cantons) was a bad faith offer designed to be rejected, and then Israel dropped the negotiations when it got fairer.

[1] https://chomsky.info/20041118/

Re: Marc Benioff joins Valley notables backing Gaza’s first coding academy

#93
post #48
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Israel has no interest in Gaza, they just want them to stop trying to attack This is false and one-sided. Likud, the ruling party in Israel, has in its platform an explicit denial of the right for a Palestinian state to exist west of the Jordan river.[1] Everything you've heard about Palestinians/Hamas denying Israel the right to exist is actually true about Israel as well towards Palestine. (In fact Hamas has stat…

This comment fails to distinguish clearly the differing situations and attitudes in re West Bank vs Gaza. Israel (including Likud) is far along a path of disengagement from Gaza https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaz...

The International Criminal Court still recognizes Israel as the occupying power in Gaza "based on the scope and degree of control that it has retained over the territory of Gaza following the 2005 disengagement."[1]

[1] https://www.icc-cpi.int/iccdocs/otp/OTP-COM-Article_53(1)-Re...

Re: Marc Benioff joins Valley notables backing Gaza’s first coding academy

#94
post #92
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Likud is not the "ruling party" in Israel. Israel's government is a coalition of multiple parties. The platform of any individual party does not equate to the official position of the state of Israel. Israel had right wing and left wing governments and the path towards a solution giving Palestinians control over the the west bank and Gaza goes back to Menahem Begin who was a prime minister from the Likud who sign…

The U.N. votes are nearly unanimous, like 150-2, and include all the democratic states (apart from Israel and the U.S.) It's pretty clear what the democratic world thinks of Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. As for the claim that Israel has supported a two-state solution under Barak's leadership: "the Camp David proposals divided the West Bank into virtually separated cantons, and could not possibly be accepted…

Clinton blamed Arafat [1] and Arafat didn't even speak for Hamas. Could you quote some direct sources rather than someone with a strong political agenda like Chomsky. Let's look at the raw facts, not opinions.

Generally the countries one would consider the "free world" have consistently supported Israel's right to defend itself, including against Palestinian terrorism. [2] is just one example but I can find many more. Please provide a source for your claim that UN decisions against Israel are nearly unanimous. I can't find any specific stats but I highly doubt your claim. While there's a lot of political deal making behind the scenes anti-Israeli decisions generally leverage the majority of the non-democracies of this world.

Hamas is an organization that does summary executions of people suspected of being spies and drags them through the streets tied behind cars (I'll spare you the link). Throwing their fellow Palestinians from Fatah off the roofs (again I'll spare you the link, you can find it yourself). Conducting campaigns of suicide bombings against Israeli civilians. Indiscriminate shelling of civilians and routinely using civilians as human shields. This organization is the source of suffering for both Israelis and Palestinians.

It's not that Israel is beyond reproach or always in the right but there's no comparison. How is "not getting a country with the lines that I want" justification for anything Hamas is doing anyways?

Please spend more time reading information from different sources about the facts and history of the conflict.

[1] https://www.clintonfoundation.org/main/news-and-media/statem...

[2] http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/generalelectio...

EDIT: Donno what pushed my buttons to get into this discussion but the Gaza situation specifically seems to be pretty clear cut. The Palestinians got their own mini-state within a small geographic region and they made their choices to have conflict where they could have not had one. The history of the entire Arab-Israeli conflict is almost irrelevant. The scale and type of Israeli responses to the happenings in Gaza can be criticized but the fact stands that Israel withdrew and let the Palestinians manage their own business and it turned out to be a complete mess which means the likelihood of this being replicated in other Palestinian areas is just about zero. The Palestinians had a chance to prove something and they proved the exact opposite. They can't blame Israel for that.

EDIT2: Doing a little more research into UN resolutions. Ignoring the question of bias vs. other world affairs it seems the pattern is as follows:

- Those Israeli related resolutions are generally proposed by non-free nations

- The US automatically supports Israel. Canada typically supports Israel. Next up in support seems to be Australia in my limited sample.

- The "non-free-world" overwhelmingly supports those resolutions.

- If the resolution is not too strong and just expresses overall regret over violence etc. etc. the EU will typically vote for it.

- If the language is strong or the resolution appears overly biased the EU will generally abstain. I think a lot of those stronger resolutions that still pass would not pass without the non-free world support.

So I don't think the statement that it's always Israel+US vs. the rest of the world stands to scrutiny. Also most resolutions are non-binding. Let's also not fool ourselves that nations vote according to some moral conscience (those that even have that to start with).

Re: Marc Benioff joins Valley notables backing Gaza’s first coding academy

#95
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding the killed children -- wasn't the people doing a revenge murder of a Palestinian teenager sentenced to long jail sentences when they got caught? The Palestinian terrorists are declared martyrs, mural paintings are done, their relatives get a pension from PLO -- while caught Israeli murderers are sent to jail..? It do seem like equivalent sides, as you claim... :-)

> The Palestinian terrorists are declared martyrs, mural paintings are done, their relatives get a pension from PLO -- while caught Israeli murderers are sent to jail..? Judging from the public reaction in Israel to the manslaughter conviction of Elor Azaria (polling suggests something like 67% want him pardoned), some segment of the Israeli public isn't above sticking up for its murderers.

Yes things are getting worse, the cinfkuct is wearing patience thin, and, as of today, he had not been pardoned. But there will be no streets named after him, he will be dishonourably discharged from the military, and he will not be generally celebrated as a hero. He is viewed as yet another victim, except by some extremists who get a lot of screen time.

Now can we get back to discussing supporting the coding academy in Gaza?

Re: Marc Benioff joins Valley notables backing Gaza’s first coding academy

#96
Having read many of the posts in this thread, I feel compelled to contribute.

The complexity of the politics of the region are beyond my grasp. I am not a political scientist, nor have I spent much time in the region. However, as an entrepreneur who has volunteered with Gaza Sky Geeks and who has traveled to Gaza to mentor at their co-working space, I feel compelled to say that (1) the organization is unquestionably using its resources effectively to foster startups there and (2) the entrepreneurs who are part of the accelerator and the wider community who attends their events are some of the most intelligent, hardest working, and good-hearted people I have ever encountered. That sounds hyperbolic, but it's true.

Most importantly, the entrepreneurs and aspiring entrepreneurs are young and have had no part in the decades of political and military conflicts that have created the regrettable tension in the region. They have been implicated in the large mess solely by virtue of where they happened to have been born. Regardless on which side of the issue you fall, it is undeniable that the problems have been created by members of the older generations. It seems reasonable to place the bet that, if a more peaceful future is possible, it will happen by creating productive pathways for the rising generation.

In the most challenging political context on the planet, Gaza Sky Geeks does an excellent job of rendering its work apolitical. I have seen this first hand. The organization is there to help Gazans create for themselves new opportunities and more hopeful futures. And, again, the Gazans who participate in their programs are of the best character and are only seeking to put their energy to create value for consumers, regardless of race or creed, via their startups.

I am not nor have I ever been an employee of Gaza Sky Geeks and have nothing to gain by writing any of this. I have no dog in this fight. But for whatever the words of an internet commenter are worth, I would urge skeptics to consider giving the organization the benefit of the doubt. I cannot say enough positive things about this organization's mission and their effective execution of it.

Re: Marc Benioff joins Valley notables backing Gaza’s first coding academy

#97
post #60
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did not respond because you are oversimplifying the issue. The history of the Israel-Palestine conflict is long and bloody. Claiming in such a confident and final manner that the building of the wall was because Gaza started is very narrow-sighted. Your analogy is incorrect. When a sovereign nation attacks another, war ensues. That is very clear. But when resistance elements arise within a city that is supposedly p…

If Hamas recognizes the right of Israel to exist, the walls will be broken and the major part of the settlements moved. Israel has shown several times that they can exchange land for peace, even within right wing governments.

No one can believe that. That's one of the big lies of the Israeli government. Settlements will never be given back and the mission is to get all the land. That was the idea from the beginning and they think they have their god on their side.

Re: Marc Benioff joins Valley notables backing Gaza’s first coding academy

#98
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As if their hate has anything to do with Israel's actions not sure if this is a serious statement or not. your tone suggests serious but your words are not serious.

Perhaps you don't know that Muslim attacks on Jews long predate the modern state of Israel. Additionally hate for Jews is common in Arab counties that are very far away from, and don't interact with, Israel at all. There is nothing at all Israel can do to change this. Look at Egypt for example - very long and successful peace treaty. But the populace still hates Jews. If it's not possible to make an ordinary Egyptian…

Hate for jews is over the world, i think that in USA or in Europe you will encounter quite a number of people that hate them and blame them for every kind of conspiracy. And it comes from the middle ages when they were blame for a lot of things just to get their money and influence. The hate problem is not only in arab countries.

Re: Marc Benioff joins Valley notables backing Gaza’s first coding academy

#99
post #93
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment fails to distinguish clearly the differing situations and attitudes in re West Bank vs Gaza. Israel (including Likud) is far along a path of disengagement from Gaza https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaz...

The International Criminal Court still recognizes Israel as the occupying power in Gaza "based on the scope and degree of control that it has retained over the territory of Gaza following the 2005 disengagement."[1] [1] https://www.icc-cpi.int/iccdocs/otp/OTP-COM-Article_53(1)-Re...

No it doesn't.

The linked article which is not a court ruling, it's a report from the "Office of the Prosecutor", says:

"While Israel maintains that it is no longer occupying Gaza, the prevalent view within the international community is that Israel remains an occupying power under international law, based on the scope and degree of control that it has retained over the territory of Gaza following the 2005 disengagement. In accordance with the reasoning underlying this perspective, the Office has proceeded on the basis that the situation in Gaza can be considered within the framework of an international armed conflict in view of the continuing military occupation by Israel. The analysis conducted and the conclusions reached would generally not be affected and still be applicable, if the Office was of the view, alternatively, that the law applicable in the present context and in light of the Israel-Hamas conflict is the law of non-international armed conflict. Given the crimes of possible relevance to the present situation, which are substantially similar in the context of both international and non-international armed conflicts, it is not necessary at this stage to reach a conclusive view on the classification of the conflict. Additionally, as the protection accorded by the rules on international armed conflicts is broader than those relating to internal conflicts, it seems appropriate, for the limited purpose of a preliminary examination, in cases of doubt, to apply those governing international armed conflicts."

So they're basically just discussing the context for this (whether the situation meets some legal criteria to get to the next stage, by the way it didn't). They say it's not really necessary to reach a conclusive view (i.e. at least the prosecutor has no conclusive view, not to mention the court) because it doesn't affect the outcome of this legal analysis.

Re: Marc Benioff joins Valley notables backing Gaza’s first coding academy

#100
I applied to mentor and got accepted last Summer. I visited Gaza last December and it was unforgettable.

The Gaza Sky Geeks (mostly geekettes!) are the most resilient and inspired group I've met in my life.

Proud to support this effort. Would love to go back.

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