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Obama is seriously considering a pardon for Chelsea Manning

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21–30 of 47 posts

Re: Obama is seriously considering a pardon for Chelsea Manning

#21
post #7

Yes, just after he closes Gitmo, like he promised _before_ getting elected.

You do realize that Obama has tried to find several ways to do this, and has been shut down by the Republicans every time?

Congress ultimately decided to keep Guantanamo, and left zero room to find a single solution; Obama had no choice but to negotiate transfers with other countries (a long and problematic process) while at the same time let the court system handle the remaining cases. Obama could perhaps have tried harder, but he has had a lot of resistance on many fronts from the GOP.

He has almost succeeded at this point, anyway; there are only about 40 prisoners left. [1]

[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/with-...

Re: Obama is seriously considering a pardon for Chelsea Manning

#22
post #10

Presidential pardons are corrupt by definition. They transgress the rule of law and equality before it. If you think someone needs a presidential pardon, just back up and think "which law is horrible and unjust and must be reformed." If not the law maybe the courts. Pardon at best is a fig leaf over a gaping wound. At worst, well pick them out yourself - the best you can say about it is that it looks really, really b…

The law always had gaps. By virtue of its written-down-ness. Pardons are for when someone very definitely did break the law, and for all same readings of a sane text they are guilty, but the heart of the people says let them free.

Re: Obama is seriously considering a pardon for Chelsea Manning

#23

I predict suicide within 5 years of pardon. Manning has such an odd personality, it's hard to discern how much is the person and how much is the influence of the extraordinary circumstances swirling around the individual. The really strange part in all this is whether preventing suicide through incarceration is at all ethical. What kind of acceptance and support awaits Manning upon being granted freedom? Can a post-p…

Um, predicting someone's suicide is gross. Just give them a chance at a healthy life. If you are concerned send help.

Re: Obama is seriously considering a pardon for Chelsea Manning

#24
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suppose we abolished presidential pardons. Now, couldn't the exact same argument be used in favor of abolishing the final layer of appeals courts? And then the layer below that? Keep in mind that many (most?) people consider interrelated checks and balances between the different branches of government to be a good thing. And the system was designed to be biased in favor of false negatives in order to reduce as much a…

No, emphatically not. Appeal courts rule on law. You see the difference?

I see the difference, but I don't see how it matters. Pardon's are a legal mechanism. They were built into the system from the very beginning. The fact that they take different factors into account (by design) doesn't somehow make them illegitimate.

You didn't quite explicitly say this, but it sounds to me like you want to make sure every unjustly convicted person suffers as publicly and viscerally as possible in order to drum up the political will for change. (I can't think of any other principled reason to oppose a mechanism to free the innocent victims of an imperfect system.)

I suppose it's easy to feel that way when it's not you or one of your loved ones in that position. To them, it's not just a "fig leaf". It's getting their life back.

Re: Obama is seriously considering a pardon for Chelsea Manning

#25
The best use of pardons would be to release thousands of people that have been convicted under the three strikes and your out schemes. Not all will deserve to be released, but someone that used up there last strike with shop lifting or stealing a car does not deserve to be put away for the rest of their life.

Re: Obama is seriously considering a pardon for Chelsea Manning

#26
post #10

Presidential pardons are corrupt by definition. They transgress the rule of law and equality before it. If you think someone needs a presidential pardon, just back up and think "which law is horrible and unjust and must be reformed." If not the law maybe the courts. Pardon at best is a fig leaf over a gaping wound. At worst, well pick them out yourself - the best you can say about it is that it looks really, really b…

When talking about the short run and long run implications of anything it must be acknowledged that in the long run we're all dead. Furthermore, in the medium term a very large portion of people's lives can be wasted.

Instinctually, I tend towards preferring legalism, and the formation of institutions rather than cults of personality and the types of ad hoc choices that undermine rational preferences in policy decisions.

However, politics are human with outputs often affecting inputs and any number of chaotic dynamics, such that a controlled corruption of some sort might be useful. Especially if the point of political leaders is to lead while environments are in flux, it makes sense that they'd occasionally find someone guilty of a current law not guilty in the context of where the law should be.

Taking a very large step back, it may have been a historic mistake by the President to pardon the large number of Americans who committed torture and ordered people to be torturers. It was unseemly to even consider the type of punishment people meritted for doing what they claimed was work for their country, and possibly as problemmatic to consider the last VP or even President being imprisoned or an even more severe punishment.

On the one hand that likely would have ushered in cycles of political retribution that were violent and vindictive. On the other, the pardons have allowed people to pretend that torture isn't definitively illegal regardless of any claimed justifications.

Re: Obama is seriously considering a pardon for Chelsea Manning

#27
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, emphatically not. Appeal courts rule on law. You see the difference?

I see the difference, but I don't see how it matters. Pardon's are a legal mechanism. They were built into the system from the very beginning. The fact that they take different factors into account (by design) doesn't somehow make them illegitimate. You didn't quite explicitly say this, but it sounds to me like you want to make sure every unjustly convicted person suffers as publicly and viscerally as possible in ord…

No. And kindly don't put words in my mouth.

The rule of law and equality before it is a principal I believe in. Some politician being able to arbitrarily decide that the rule of law does not apply to a particular person is a violation of that principal.

Maybe one day you'll see why it matters.

Re: Obama is seriously considering a pardon for Chelsea Manning

#28
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see the difference, but I don't see how it matters. Pardon's are a legal mechanism. They were built into the system from the very beginning. The fact that they take different factors into account (by design) doesn't somehow make them illegitimate. You didn't quite explicitly say this, but it sounds to me like you want to make sure every unjustly convicted person suffers as publicly and viscerally as possible in ord…

No. And kindly don't put words in my mouth. The rule of law and equality before it is a principal I believe in. Some politician being able to arbitrarily decide that the rule of law does not apply to a particular person is a violation of that principal. Maybe one day you'll see why it matters.

My apologies if I was misrepresenting your position. I was basing my take on these words:

> If you think someone needs a presidential pardon, just back up and think "which law is horrible and unjust and must be reformed." If not the law maybe the courts. Pardon at best is a fig leaf over a gaping wound.

Maybe you don't like to put it this bluntly, but it seems pretty clear that you were saying "pardoning is never justified, just reform the legal system instead." I saw no consideration in any of your statements for the possibility that some of these unfortunate souls could get some relief in the meantime while the long, hard, and uncertain work of reform is carried out. No, that would be "at best a fig leaf", meaning something covers up a dirty secret, alleviating shame and embarrassment.

If you feel I'm misrepresenting your original argument, I'm willing to listen to an alternative explanation of what you meant. But until one is offered, I stand by what I said. It was a reasonable interpretation of your words as you wrote them.

By the way, you keep describing this as the President "being able to arbitrarily decide that the rule of law does not apply to a particular person". This is an effective rhetorical technique because it conjures up images of corrupt witch hunts, political retribution, secret prisons, and other such nightmarish scenarios encountered in totalitarian distopias. You're leaving out the fact that the politician can only decide this in one direction - toward innocence. It can't be used to punish anybody. It can only be used to delight them. I consider this an example of the Noncentral Fallacy[0].

> Maybe one day you'll see why it matters.

Maybe, rather than putting on an air of dismissive superiority and suggesting that I'm just not wise and experienced enough to see the world the way it really is, you could provide an actual example of how it could matter to me in a negative way.

[0] http://lesswrong.com/lw/e95/the_noncentral_fallacy_the_worst...

Re: Obama is seriously considering a pardon for Chelsea Manning

#29
post #4

If Obama only pardons one person (hopefully unlikely) Chelsea is by far the correct choice imo. She did a great service to the world and has been horribly mistreated by the prison system for it.

What great service did he do? And mistreated? Perhaps, but not any more, and certainly quite less given the media scrutiny, than any generic prisoner. There are plenty of more deserving souls out there, people like this - https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/mom-of-young-man-jail... https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/5lc9z3/justice_dept_l... Or intervene on behalf of people who take a deal for the sake of not b…

The first two links you posted don't seem to apply, as far as I know, because the President can only pardon people convicted of federal crimes against the US.

Source: http://www.legalflip.com/Article.aspx?id=61&pageid=321

Re: Obama is seriously considering a pardon for Chelsea Manning

#30

If Obama only pardons one person (hopefully unlikely) Chelsea is by far the correct choice imo. She did a great service to the world and has been horribly mistreated by the prison system for it.

I disagree, I think you can draw a straight line from him to the election of Donald Trump. The one sided, anti-us nature of WikiLeaks, including perhaps incomplete content, hint at editorial digression with a clear motivation. I can't come up with a single way this helped America, but it certainly hurt our prestige around the world.

For the sake of argument, let's say that WikiLeaks is anti-US. How does that matter? The US itself is ruining it's reputation by conducting mass surveillance, torture (at least during Bush years), drone assainations, etc. WikiLeaks just happens to be the vehicle for releasing classified information about that. In other words, if the US wasn't doing that then there wouldn't be much "embarrassing" material for WikiLeaks to release.
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