Marc Benioff joins Valley notables backing Gaza’s first coding academy • Hacker News Board

Re: Marc Benioff joins Valley notables backing Gaza’s first coding academy

#51

Post by berntb » Thu, Jan 12, 2017, 12:36 AM UTC

Cyph0n wrote: post #50

YZF wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have a solution. There's plenty of trauma on both sides. I don't want to start dredging up all the horrible acts of violence experienced by Israelis. This sort of thinking is not productive. It's more useful to think given where we are right now what can be done... Part of the issue with rebuilding is that the raw materials get confiscated to support the war effort. The bombing is at least partly related to t…

It is indeed not black and white. But when you are surrounded on all sides by a wall, when living conditions never improve, when hospitals lack even the most basic equipment, and when there is no improvement in sight, doesn't armed resistance make sense? Hamas sometimes takes it a bit too far, I'll definitely admit that, but I think resistance is a valid approach to their conundrum. When you are outgunned and outnumb…

As far as I know, the walls came up as security measures because of the second Intifada. Before that, people lived in Gaza and worked in Israel and people travelled between for shopping, etc. (This isolation gave serious economic problems in Israel too.)

So the isolation and security came up because of violence, the terror against civilian Israelis is not an original reaction to the wall.

But I suspect you know this.

Re: Marc Benioff joins Valley notables backing Gaza’s first coding academy

#52

Post by davidf18 » Thu, Jan 12, 2017, 12:41 AM UTC

I've been to Israel many times including during the time of the first Gaza conflict (Cast Lead).

There were elections in 2006 and Hamas was elected over Fatah. Hamas does not recognize Israel and is declared a terrorist state by the US, EU as well as Israel.

There were supposed to be elections in 2010 but Hamas will not allow them.

Hamas has spent large sums of money shooting missiles into Israel and using concrete meant for building homes and schools for and hiring labor for building tunnels into Israel. So serious was the missile problem that Israel created the Iron Dome missile system (see youtube or CBS 60 minutes) to protect its population. That technology is now being co-produced with a US arms manufacturer for sale to other countries. The Israelis have also had to develop tunnel locating technology.

While Israel has a program of encouraging venture capital and startups, it is truly a pity that the Palestinians did not elect Fatah over Hamas.

Re: Marc Benioff joins Valley notables backing Gaza’s first coding academy

#53

Post by Papirola » Thu, Jan 12, 2017, 12:53 AM UTC

Cyph0n wrote: post #17

huac wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We shouldn't normalize the idea that it's acceptable for Israel to control all communication and trade of another state.

I love how the parent comment phrased that as if Israel was doing Gaza an immense favor by not cutting communication.

why do you say that?

Re: Marc Benioff joins Valley notables backing Gaza’s first coding academy

#54

Post by Cyph0n » Thu, Jan 12, 2017, 12:54 AM UTC

berntb wrote: post #51

Cyph0n wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is indeed not black and white. But when you are surrounded on all sides by a wall, when living conditions never improve, when hospitals lack even the most basic equipment, and when there is no improvement in sight, doesn't armed resistance make sense? Hamas sometimes takes it a bit too far, I'll definitely admit that, but I think resistance is a valid approach to their conundrum. When you are outgunned and outnumb…

As far as I know, the walls came up as security measures because of the second Intifada. Before that, people lived in Gaza and worked in Israel and people travelled between for shopping, etc. (This isolation gave serious economic problems in Israel too.) So the isolation and security came up because of violence, the terror against civilian Israelis is not an original reaction to the wall. But I suspect you know this.

So when a population misbehaves, you setup a ghetto to isolate it? We're talking about upwards of a million people here by the way. Is that really the right way to handle things?

Looking at the whole picture, I maintain that resistance is justified.

Re: Marc Benioff joins Valley notables backing Gaza’s first coding academy

#55

Post by Cyph0n » Thu, Jan 12, 2017, 12:57 AM UTC

Papirola wrote: post #53

Cyph0n wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love how the parent comment phrased that as if Israel was doing Gaza an immense favor by not cutting communication.

why do you say that?

Because you can't do a favor to a population you've imprisoned against its will? Plus, the fact that you control the communication channel for said population in the first place makes cutting it off a weak move.

Re: Marc Benioff joins Valley notables backing Gaza’s first coding academy

#56

Post by berntb » Thu, Jan 12, 2017, 12:58 AM UTC

Cyph0n wrote: post #54

berntb wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I know, the walls came up as security measures because of the second Intifada. Before that, people lived in Gaza and worked in Israel and people travelled between for shopping, etc. (This isolation gave serious economic problems in Israel too.) So the isolation and security came up because of violence, the terror against civilian Israelis is not an original reaction to the wall. But I suspect you know this.

So when a population misbehaves, you setup a ghetto to isolate it? We're talking about upwards of a million people here by the way. Is that really the right way to handle things? Looking at the whole picture, I maintain that resistance is justified.

You don't contradict that you were aware of my points..?

If e.g. Finland or Estonia started to shoot rocket artilleri towards St Petersburg, the reaction would certainly be much worse than Israel's at Gaza...

(And because of Karelia etc for Finland and generations of slavery for Estonians, they have as good reasons as the Gazans.)

The situation is:

Side A attack side B's civilians. You only complain about side B's quite moderate defense against A's attacks. (Again, installed to stop the attacks.) Then you motivate that further attacks from A are understandable, because of B's defense.

It is such a sad case of hypocritical and hateful circular logic I get vertigo. :-(

Re: Marc Benioff joins Valley notables backing Gaza’s first coding academy

#57

Post by random314 » Thu, Jan 12, 2017, 1:02 AM UTC

davidf18 wrote: post #52

I've been to Israel many times including during the time of the first Gaza conflict (Cast Lead). There were elections in 2006 and Hamas was elected over Fatah. Hamas does not recognize Israel and is declared a terrorist state by the US, EU as well as Israel. There were supposed to be elections in 2010 but Hamas will not allow them. Hamas has spent large sums of money shooting missiles into Israel and using concrete m…

> There were elections in 2006 and Hamas was elected over Fatah.

If the people of the land don't elect the party we prefer (by cross-checking with our terrorist list) we have no choice but to support their seige, occupation and Apartheid.

Re: Marc Benioff joins Valley notables backing Gaza’s first coding academy

#58

Post by Cyph0n » Thu, Jan 12, 2017, 1:07 AM UTC

berntb wrote: post #56

Cyph0n wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So when a population misbehaves, you setup a ghetto to isolate it? We're talking about upwards of a million people here by the way. Is that really the right way to handle things? Looking at the whole picture, I maintain that resistance is justified.

You don't contradict that you were aware of my points..? If e.g. Finland or Estonia started to shoot rocket artilleri towards St Petersburg, the reaction would certainly be much worse than Israel's at Gaza... (And because of Karelia etc for Finland and generations of slavery for Estonians, they have as good reasons as the Gazans.) The situation is: Side A attack side B's civilians. You only complain about side B's qu…

I did not respond because you are oversimplifying the issue. The history of the Israel-Palestine conflict is long and bloody. Claiming in such a confident and final manner that the building of the wall was because Gaza started is very narrow-sighted.

Your analogy is incorrect.

When a sovereign nation attacks another, war ensues. That is very clear. But when resistance elements arise within a city that is supposedly part of a sovereign nation, you don't build a wall around the city. That's how you would handle it in the Middle Ages.

But the issue is even more complex than that, since the resistance aims to gain independence from the state. So I would say that the Gaza situation is somewhat similar to that of the IRA and the UK.

I don't recall the UK building a wall around Ireland and carpet bombing it every few years?

Woah woah woah man... quite moderate? The destruction of a third of Gaza and the death of thousands of people is quite moderate?

I give up. This discussion is going nowhere :(

Re: Marc Benioff joins Valley notables backing Gaza’s first coding academy

#59

Post by berntb » Thu, Jan 12, 2017, 1:17 AM UTC

Cyph0n wrote: post #58

berntb wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't contradict that you were aware of my points..? If e.g. Finland or Estonia started to shoot rocket artilleri towards St Petersburg, the reaction would certainly be much worse than Israel's at Gaza... (And because of Karelia etc for Finland and generations of slavery for Estonians, they have as good reasons as the Gazans.) The situation is: Side A attack side B's civilians. You only complain about side B's qu…

I did not respond because you are oversimplifying the issue. The history of the Israel-Palestine conflict is long and bloody. Claiming in such a confident and final manner that the building of the wall was because Gaza started is very narrow-sighted. Your analogy is incorrect. When a sovereign nation attacks another, war ensues. That is very clear. But when resistance elements arise within a city that is supposedly p…

What I've read, is that the border to Gaza was open enough for commuting and shopping trips -- until the systematic attacks on civilians.

You had no problem with that description in your previous comment.

But good references to non partisan sources would be interesting?

(AGAIN: If the ones controlling an area -- including doing elections, defense, police and taxes -- put all their economy into rocket artillery against another country's civilians, the reaction will not be mild... And Gaza is not part of a city, it was a free area.)

Re: Marc Benioff joins Valley notables backing Gaza’s first coding academy

#60

Post by wslh » Thu, Jan 12, 2017, 1:24 AM UTC

Cyph0n wrote: post #58

berntb wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't contradict that you were aware of my points..? If e.g. Finland or Estonia started to shoot rocket artilleri towards St Petersburg, the reaction would certainly be much worse than Israel's at Gaza... (And because of Karelia etc for Finland and generations of slavery for Estonians, they have as good reasons as the Gazans.) The situation is: Side A attack side B's civilians. You only complain about side B's qu…

I did not respond because you are oversimplifying the issue. The history of the Israel-Palestine conflict is long and bloody. Claiming in such a confident and final manner that the building of the wall was because Gaza started is very narrow-sighted. Your analogy is incorrect. When a sovereign nation attacks another, war ensues. That is very clear. But when resistance elements arise within a city that is supposedly p…

If Hamas recognizes the right of Israel to exist, the walls will be broken and the major part of the settlements moved. Israel has shown several times that they can exchange land for peace, even within right wing governments.