Live data from Hacker News

Why Many Cities Have No Money

strongtowns.org

341–350 of 424 posts

Re: Why Many Cities Have No Money

#341
Good piece, but there is another major factor that is missing entirely - the impact of debt financing and continuously rolling bonds. In addition to what the article mentions, this is the other factor contributing to the slow death of our cities. What nearly every municipality in the US has done (all municipalities BTW, not just the "cities") is to take on a debt load to finance their desired expenditure, whether it be for infrastructure or otherwise - very similar to what our Federal government has done. And at first glance, it makes sense. It's a huge expenditure so let's finance it and pay it off over time in accordance with tax revenues. The problem is that they almost never pay it off. I know that statement sounds crazy at first, but it's not. Sure, they pay off bonds as they come due. But they pay them off and roll them into new bonds - that's the problem. This has been fueled by steadily decreasing bond rates over the past 30-33 years. This allows the municipalities to roll over their debt at a lower rate when it comes due, which reduces their interest payment and also allows them to borrow more at the same time.

Here's an example - It's 1/1/1985 and the rate on the 10 year treasury note is 11.65% (yes, that was the real rate), so our city was able to get a rate of, say, 12%. They issue a 10 year bond for $5 million to build a school and some road maintenance. They make the required coupon payments (usually semi-annually) using tax revenues - and that amounts to $600,000 each year. They keep doing that until just before the principal comes due in full on 1/1/1995. The idiots running the city haven't saved the 5 million required to pay off the principal so what do they do? Well they take a look at the market and see that the 10 year treasury note is now 7.19% so they can get around 7.5%. So they issue a new bond for $5 million for another 10 years and now only have to pay $375,000 in interest coupons every year. But they are still collecting 600k at the given tax rates which leaves them 225k in the green. So they can either spend that every year or they can use that as the coupon payment on an addition $3 million bond and they get it right now! Even if some scrupulous treasurer or township board member were to say that they should just spend the 225k and not take on any additional debt, someone will point out to them that over 10 years that's $2.25 million and here they get to instead use that money to spend a total of $3 million - these guys feel like they are making money taking on debt. And as long as interest rates keep going down and they don't need to repay principal, it all works so they agree. Now 1/1/2005 rolls around - they owe $8 million but rates are 4.5% so they can get 4.75%. So they rollover the $8 million for a yearly coupon of 380k. They also use the remaining 220k to open up a new bond for ~$4.6 million (4,631,578.95 to be precise) - and now they can still pay the same 600k in interest that they have been for decades but they have an outstanding debt issuance of $12.6 million.

Now, if you are still reading this far and fully grasp the horror of the above, you can begin to understand one of the many reasons rates can't go too far up anytime soon. We have been Japan'ed, and this is just part of the reason of how it happened. Also, I want to point out that in the above example no increase in the tax rate is needed to help pay for this, even without population growth at all. Tack on population growth, productivity and technological progress, as well as the increase of the money supply by the federal reserve over that time period and in real terms it becomes even less. Now think about how much your taxes have increased on a percentage basis over the same period on the state and municipal levels and it should become clear just how horribly mismanaged everything has been for quite some time. Rates can't really go much further south so even if they hold constant and never increase...all of our broke ass cities and towns will only be able to refinance at the same rate (best case scenario). This means they can't increase expenditure at all for anything unless they make taxes sky high to support the spending. The free money game is over.

Re: Why Many Cities Have No Money

#342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Chicago at least, it was a vicious circle. The rich (who by extension are the powerful) moved poor (or maybe more inline to their thought process at the time, black) people to specific areas so that they would be away from the rich (or again, really more relevant at the time, white) people. This concentration of people required more services both because of the sheer higher concentration of people and because of t…

According to you, the problem is that the rich moved away and stopped providing resources. Suppose inequality were lower and those rich people simply didn't exist. They would still be unable to provide resources, and the low level of services you describe would still exist. Wouldn't the crime/drug use/etc still happen?

> According to you, the problem is that the rich moved away and stopped providing resources.

That is not what I said. What I said was that the powerful moved the poor, into higher density, more resource intensive areas and then neglected to provide adequate services.

If the inequality were lower and those rich people (and really I prefer powerful in this case, but they are largely the same group so I suppose it is fine) did not exist, the concentrated population would be diffused across more areas, making it less tenable to actively neglect them and making the problem less severe in the first place.

That said, I believe crime/drug use/etc are not avoidable, so its not a question of whether those things would occur but a question of the rate.

Re: Why Many Cities Have No Money

#343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chicago is fantastic. You should try a few other cities and report back. Source: Moved out and now want to go back.

Really? I mean, if you have money and can make sure you're in specific areas of the city enjoying specific things, I can see it being great. But a blanket statement like that about Chicago is very surprising given all of the negative things about its situation (unbelievable gun violence, for one). Also I can never get over the hilariously bad 75-year lease of its parking meters where they got $1B up front in exchange…

> (unbelievable gun violence, for one).

Gun violence does NOT happen in the "good" parts of the city to "good" people. I mean yes I am sure it happens. But the good parts of Chicago have being shot by a gun odds as lower or lower as any other major American city. (Look at say the Violent crime rate in Lincoln Park or Oldtown).

Deal with drugs or live in a bad area? Yes, not that safe. But I am lucky to avoid both of those.

Parking meter was total robbery. But Chicago has good income. The small town I moved to is like the city in this story. Too many roads that cannot be paid to maintain. My city literally has 0 debt. Not low debt, but like literally 0 debt. But he average salary is 35k, and each year the city crumbles a little bit more. Chicago with the average salary double that, even with debt, is a more attractive place to live.

Re: Why Many Cities Have No Money

#345
post #303
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any city planned and developed before cars is generally considered very friendly, walkable, and desirable. Europe is full of such cities and they're loved for it. If only planners, politicians and citizens would realise what they have given up just to make it convenient to drive.

> Any city planned and developed before cars... Before cars and before skyscrapers! The model of town you're talking about doesn't scale well.

It scales a lot better than suburbs as far as the eye can see.

Re: Why Many Cities Have No Money

#346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you looked at where your town money actually goes? You think 30-40% is going to corruption? These numbers are public. Dive in. Sprawl is hard to sustain. We should let some paved roads turn to dirt, and encourage fewer dense places to live. (Or you can live far out, but no paved roads, and no fire trucks)

Yes I do. In the form of paying too much and too long for services such as construction.

What would you say if someone told you that about the software you built.

You quote 6 months and 50k for a project. A non-developer told you that was too long and too expensive. It should cost 25k and take 3 months.

Is that acceptable?

Re: Why Many Cities Have No Money

#347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ick. In Vancouver we have some areas which are basically paved with 5-10 floor buildings -- there's no space between adjacent buildings, and only a narrow sidewalk separating buildings from vehicular traffic. We also have areas with 30-40 floor towers separated by parks and playgrounds, with plenty of trees and wide sidewalks. The population density is basically identical between these areas, but I can't imagine why…

Seems like a problem with street design. As someone noted above, you do need wider streets with wide side walks for this type of construction to be livible. If you cluster too tightly, window to window, it definitely degrades the setup.

It's not just a matter of the streets; it's also the space within each block. Having towers makes it possible to have open spaces as well without decreasing the density.

Re: Why Many Cities Have No Money

#348
post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> StrongTowns is claiming that infrastructure maintenance alone costs the same as leveling the entire neighborhood and rebuilding it all from scratch at retail pricing every 30 years. This doesn't seem that surprising to me. Replacing existing utilities in place is far more expensive than laying them in the first place because you have to do it without cutting off everyone's access to water/electricity/whatever while…

> Replacing existing utilities in place is far more expensive than laying them in the first place. Sure, but it's not 6X more expensive in the suburbs. Water / Gas lines, for instance, are often under sidewalks or yards now so you don't have to dig up the road to replace them. > because you have to do it without cutting off everyone's access to water/electricity/whatever while you do it You don't have to. When utilit…

> Sure, but it's not 6X more expensive in the suburbs. Water / Gas lines, for instance, are often under sidewalks or yards now so you don't have to dig up the road to replace them.

Sometimes. Digging up sidewalks and yards is also expensive, regardless.

> You don't have to. When utility work gets done in the suburbs, people often just lose water / electricity / gas / whatever for the 24-48 hours while they do it, and just have to deal with it.

I've never been anywhere that 48 hours without electricity or water was considered acceptable for maintenance. In my experience, most maintenance is done during business hours with the expectation that people have utilities when they get ready in the morning and when they get home.

24 hours without a major utility is generally considered an emergency and crews are driving in from other states to help.

> Even after adjusting for inflation, it's only about 2X the cost of a driveway, not 10x.

You're probably right that the 10x number isn't accurate, since I completely made it up. It's still a lot of money and the cost to replace is always higher than the cost to build in the first place (with perhaps the exception of cost for grading).

> And that's my problem with the article. It seems they took the actual cost of infrastructure, "imagined scaling it up maybe 10x", and then claimed a crisis using their imaginary costs. Real infrastructure costs, while high, are simply not anywhere near as high as they are claiming.

I feel like you're nitpicking their claims without providing any alternative data or a compelling reason why their numbers don't make sense. You're asserting that they arbitrarily scaled up costs but you've not shown that they did so. The author is a civil engineer and a PE and a city planner so there's some weight behind his claims. You're asserting that his numbers are lies because you don't like them.

I'm not sure where your "6 times per generation" replacement claim is coming from, either.

Re: Why Many Cities Have No Money

#349

There are some cities that get around this by requiring HOAs in new subdivisions, and requiring those HOAs to pay for maintenance of much of the infrastructure. The homeowners pay the same property tax they would pay anywhere else in the same city. There are a number of cities in the Sacramento area that have been doing this kind of thing for over a decade now. That approach brings in another set of problems, but it'…

I'd love to see a more local approach where say a couple hundred of my neighbors from the few blocks around me could vote to raise taxes for something specific, like repaving a street, or rehabbing a park. It's local money that you know stays local.

These already exist where I live (CA), there are line items for things like city-wide storm sewer, improvements to local parks, levies for specific work.

It's managed by the city, so I'm not sure if it hits the general fund, but it is a tax specifically for those things.

Re: Why Many Cities Have No Money

#350

The author, Chuck Marohn, has previously made this video that explains how a Land Value Tax would affect the fiscal situation of a city (for the better): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ok2uR3btMrE

I was for a land value tax (because people with more wealth in the form of land would pay more taxes in theory) but after watching the video I am now against it. It hinges on the definition of improving land, and from an environmental standpoint human improvement of land is an externality that as often as not creates negative value through exhaustion of resources, waste and unsustainability. Also IMHO there is far to…

To help the environment, it's important to avoid sprawl. And to avoid sprawl, you need building on the intensive margin (infill) to be more attractive than building on the extensive margin (sprawl). Land-use policy without LVT precludes infill, so there's every reason to say that LVT is an environmentally-friendly policy.

That said, you don't want all land being elevated to its highest use, including sub-marginal land. That's why enacting a floor to how low a land tax could be makes sense-- it would serve to protect wilderness.

Post reply on HN