Open offices are bad for us • Hacker News Board

Re: Open offices are bad for us

#181

Post by jasode » Wed, Jan 11, 2017, 5:41 PM UTC

taway_1212 wrote: post #154

jasode wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>We need some kind of vaccine to combat it. The vaccine is a startup that is 10x (or even just 2x) better than everyone else because they use private offices. Since that hypothetical business hasn't yet proven that idea, all the articles from journalists writing about "open offices bad" are just preaching to the choir. Even the common cited reason for open offices being "saves real estate costs" is questionable. As a…

>> We need some kind of vaccine to combat it. > The vaccine is a startup that is 10x (or even just 2x) better than everyone else because they use private offices. At Trello everyone is either remote or has a private office. I'm not sure how to prove that they're 2x (I'd say it's too vague to be provable), but they've managed to do well without taking large amounts of investment, which speaks well of their productivit…

>they've managed to do well

I think you're inadvertently undermining your point. Trello wasn't profitable.[1] They were "cash-flow break even" which is also another way of saying they still had not earned enough "free cash flow" to pay back their past internal investments that got them where they currently are.

Trello has private offices.

Atlassian has open offices.[2] They are also profitable.[3]

Atlassian was the one who bought Trello. Trello didn't buy Atlassian. Trello did not perform 2x better than Atlassian JIRA. (E.g. the ideal narrative would have been, "because Trello programmers have less interruptions than Atlassian programmers, their productivity was proven to be 2x superior and they made Atlassian JIRA obsolete.")

If you want to change the hearts & minds of people like Mark Z, the Trello example is not a case study to use.

[1] http://www.forbes.com/sites/alexkonrad/2016/05/23/trello-get...

[2] http://blogs.gartner.com/tom_murphy/2012/02/25/atlassian-eve...

[3] http://www.zdnet.com/article/atlassian-records-20m-profit-in...

Re: Open offices are bad for us

#182

Post by xenihn » Wed, Jan 11, 2017, 5:44 PM UTC

grokas wrote: post #3

"Nearly 50% of people working in open offices are dissatisfied with their sound privacy" Should be: Nearly 50% of people working in open offices don't have good over-ear headphones.

I don't like to listen to music when concentrating on anything, with the exception of driving.

Re: Open offices are bad for us

#183

Post by drivers99 » Wed, Jan 11, 2017, 5:48 PM UTC

vdnkh wrote: post #148

smelendez wrote: post #21

Open offices are awful, but they're here to stay for the same reason more adults are living with roommates and relatives: high real estate prices. Working remotely is one solution, but many companies don't think it would work for them. Personally, I'd make the shared area for solitary work only: no work discussions longer than a minute at work areas (use a conference room, take a walk or Slack), no eating at work are…

> no eating at work areas As a person who hates the sound of people chewing loudly, when you eat at your desk, please be considerate of people like me. Chewing with your mouth open bothers more people than you think. Should fall under standard don't-bother-people decorum like showering and brushing your teeth but it doesn't.

For me it's gum (especially completely open mouth chewing... like, seriously?!) when working in close quarters like conference rooms. I don't say anything, because I don't want to seem rude or controlling. Chewing coming from nearby cubicles is also very noticeable to me. When I hear it, I have to escape with headphones. I try to keep in mind that for the person making the noise, it is a positive thing in their perspective (as it is for me when I eat), and not think "should" statements.

Re: Open offices are bad for us

#184

Post by mixmastamyk » Wed, Jan 11, 2017, 5:51 PM UTC

Maro wrote: post #98

I've been working in open office environments for the last 5+ years, also at one of AmaFaceGooSoft. I find it's a non-issue, it doesn't bother me or others, I can't recall a time in the last 1-2 years when someone complained about it. Saying that o.o. is not effective is a bit fishy given how successful some of the companies employing it are. I remember 10+ years ago at my first job we had a nice office building (it…

What do you do when you need to focus?

Re: Open offices are bad for us

#185

Post by rotten » Wed, Jan 11, 2017, 5:53 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #30

smelendez wrote: post #21

Open offices are awful, but they're here to stay for the same reason more adults are living with roommates and relatives: high real estate prices. Working remotely is one solution, but many companies don't think it would work for them. Personally, I'd make the shared area for solitary work only: no work discussions longer than a minute at work areas (use a conference room, take a walk or Slack), no eating at work are…

Strangely, open offices with cubicles can be more expensive than building drywall walls to make closed offices. And the much-vaunted flexibility of cubicles is way, way overrated. In my experience, cubicles sit in the same place for years. Any benefit of re-using them is lost. Also if the company is growing, new ones get bought all the time, so old ones aren't re-used anyway. Its obvious on the face of it: re-usable…

At one place I worked we went in on a weekend and rearranged all of the cubicles in our work area to better suit our work style and needs. (moved openings, created a central collaboration area, etc) Our boss was ok with it because he said he was responsible for the budget for that floor (including real estate) and if we felt it would make us more productive he was all for it. Unfortunately the corporate bureaucrats got wind of it several months later and came in from HQ (which was 1,000 miles away) and ordered us to put them back in the official standard configuration. They didn't care that our team worked better and was more productive the way we had it. They had official standard configurations and our cubes had to stay that way.

Re: Open offices are bad for us

#186

Post by ggame » Wed, Jan 11, 2017, 5:57 PM UTC

The reduction in productivity is not a bug, it's a feature.

Your boss spends a lot of time in meeting justifying why he needs a bigger headcount. Having more productive employees makes his job much harder. Colloquially it's called 'Empire Building'

Re: Open offices are bad for us

#187

Post by paulryanrogers » Wed, Jan 11, 2017, 5:57 PM UTC

bambax wrote: post #175

I hate open offices with a passion, for reasons well explained in the article (and many others that regularly pop up here). However, many companies that have open offices enjoyed an incredible success and some even achieved world domination (Facebook). How is that even possible is what I'd really like to know.

"However, many companies that have open offices enjoyed an incredible success and some even achieved world domination (Facebook). How is that even possible is what I'd really like to know."

Many civilizations also thrived on the backs of slave labor. We don't look to slavery as the way forward today.

That being said, some people prefer the social aspects of working physically close to others. Ideally companies will provide what works best for each employee. At the end of the day business is both by and for people.

EDIT: Corrected typo

Re: Open offices are bad for us

#188

Post by closeparen » Wed, Jan 11, 2017, 5:58 PM UTC

jonas21 wrote: post #136

a1a wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's one of the main takeaways from the story tho. In an open office those who need silence cannot get it, even if there are private rooms available: "Some of us even feel that escaping to a quiet room is a sign of weakness" and "it can feel as if we’re not pulling our weight if we’re not present"

Over ear headphones are a pretty good workaround if you don't want to be distracted by the noise.

No, they're not. Headphones are a marginal improvement over listening to all the conversations in the room, but not nearly as good for concentration as an actual quiet room.

Re: Open offices are bad for us

#189

Post by sjclemmy » Wed, Jan 11, 2017, 6:00 PM UTC

eropple wrote: post #179

jonas21 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Over ear headphones are a pretty good workaround if you don't want to be distracted by the noise.

They're really not, though. In addition to "hey, hearing damage!" if you're listening loud enough to actually counteract the din of crap around you, it's a profoundly isolating thing to be wearing them for six hours a day. It's symptomatic relief that pushes the buttons of way worse problems, IMO.

Which is why I just bought some of those Bose noise cancelling cans. Listen at a safe volume and block out noise. They're great.

Re: Open offices are bad for us

#190

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jan 11, 2017, 6:00 PM UTC

eropple wrote: post #179

jonas21 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Over ear headphones are a pretty good workaround if you don't want to be distracted by the noise.

They're really not, though. In addition to "hey, hearing damage!" if you're listening loud enough to actually counteract the din of crap around you, it's a profoundly isolating thing to be wearing them for six hours a day. It's symptomatic relief that pushes the buttons of way worse problems, IMO.

[deleted]