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When You Are Depressed, Make Something

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Re: When You Are Depressed, Make Something

#221

Post by eivarv »

cpncrunch wrote: post #184
komali2 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely disagree with you. I believe you are describing solutions to problems that can make someone sad or frustrated, which is a fine thing. I'm all about being real about your life situation and doing something about it. However, depression is a disease independent of external factors. I had it when I had arguably one of the coolest jobs in my life up until that point. I treated it with medication, got out of…

>Those techniques are what you called "short term solutions." I think of them as long-term preventative measures to stave off the chemical imbalance that can cause depression What causes the chemical imbalances? Research on animals show that chronic stress causes depression, so it definitely can be caused by external factors. If your job is causing chronic stress then changing job is obviously a plausible cure for yo…

> Research on animals show that chronic stress causes depression...

Source?

That sounds like an oversimplification in my opinion, as there are some pretty glaring problems with using other animals to model mental illness in humans.

Wouldn't the only real analogue be learned helplessness, or am I missing something?

Re: When You Are Depressed, Make Something

#222

Post by ajkjk »

Alex3917 wrote: post #165
yellowapple wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[citation needed] ^ In particular, it looks like you're mixing up cause and effect, and I haven't the slightest idea from where you're getting the "brain inflammation" thing (it sure as hell ain't in the DSM-IV, last I checked (it's been awhile, granted, but still)).

> I haven't the slightest idea where you're getting the "brain inflammation" thing from http://lmgtfy.com/?q=inflammation+depression

You shouldn't post this way on this site.

You're claiming matter-of-factly that brain inflammation causes depression. Well, I (we) don't believe you, because that's a far from widely accepted theory. Your condescending google links don't help.

Re: When You Are Depressed, Make Something

#223

Post by kzrdude »

jackpirate wrote: post #195
ZeroFries wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- However, depression is a disease independent of external factors. What? No disease is independent of external factors. You even list a bunch of things which affect it. Depression is a pattern, subject to countless factors. I think what you mean to say is, there isn't a single cause of depression, and it can manifest when many of the factors affecting it seem to be "pretty good", and it can not manifest when those f…

>What? No disease is independent of external factors. This statement is true only in the narrowest sense and is actively harmful to people with mental health issues. Let's compare depression and cancer to see why. It is common to say something like "cancer is independent of external factors" to mean that anyone can get cancer. It doesn't matter how healthy of a lifestyle you live. Due to random chance, the guy who re…

The acceptance for cancer is great, but I believe both cancer and depression can be avoided with good chance due to factors you decide yourself. Living healthily, eating healthily.

Re: When You Are Depressed, Make Something

#224

Post by cpncrunch »

yellowapple wrote: post #219
cpncrunch wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having a crappy job or psychotic boss is more long-term than an "episode" such as bereavement, and definitely can lead to depression.

Perhaps. This is probably why I ain't a psychologist :) The definition linked above does seem to generally imply (and in some cases explicitly state) that depressive episode/disorder symptoms better explained by some other diagnosis or situation (like schizophrenia or bipolar disorder) should be taken as further symptoms of that disorder/situation rather than a separate diagnosis of MDE/MDD. I guess the question is w…

It's difficult to determine whether or not depression is caused by life situation, unless there is something obvious like a recent bereavement.

It seems likely that both external stressors and internal thought processes can both be the cause of depression (and in many cases, a combination). CBT addresses the internal thought processes, but doesn't do anything to address external factors. My wife underwent CBT and took antidepressants, but they didn't really cure the depression. Quitting her crappy job fixed it for good.

Re: When You Are Depressed, Make Something

#225

Post by yellowapple »

Alex3917 wrote: post #165
yellowapple wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[citation needed] ^ In particular, it looks like you're mixing up cause and effect, and I haven't the slightest idea from where you're getting the "brain inflammation" thing (it sure as hell ain't in the DSM-IV, last I checked (it's been awhile, granted, but still)).

> I haven't the slightest idea where you're getting the "brain inflammation" thing from http://lmgtfy.com/?q=inflammation+depression

From your Google query: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/news/severe-depression-linke...

"The Duke team concluded that depression, therefore, is more likely to contribute to inflammation in the body as opposed to arising as a consequence of inflammation."

Re: When You Are Depressed, Make Something

#226

Post by Broken_Hippo »

cpncrunch wrote: post #184
komali2 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely disagree with you. I believe you are describing solutions to problems that can make someone sad or frustrated, which is a fine thing. I'm all about being real about your life situation and doing something about it. However, depression is a disease independent of external factors. I had it when I had arguably one of the coolest jobs in my life up until that point. I treated it with medication, got out of…

>Those techniques are what you called "short term solutions." I think of them as long-term preventative measures to stave off the chemical imbalance that can cause depression What causes the chemical imbalances? Research on animals show that chronic stress causes depression, so it definitely can be caused by external factors. If your job is causing chronic stress then changing job is obviously a plausible cure for yo…

To do that, you actually have to both be actually able to find and take a different job plus have the clarity to know that such a thing will improve your situation.

And with depression (or anxiety), this isn't so easy. It gets difficult to see opportunities and easier to blame yourself, thinking, "I'm lucky to have this crappy job and that they put up with me". It can make your job seem crappy, even when it isn't.

I get to see the way the chemicals affect my brain once a month. Once a month, I think I'm going to lose my job. That people dislike me. That people are suddenly treating me harshly and I must have done something wrong. I consider changing jobs.

This is like this even when I enjoy my work and actually like the folks I'm surrounded with. It doesn't stop with work, but is a handy example.

I likely should be on anti-depressants half the month - if you've not figured it out, I'm female and this is entirely hormone-related. Instead, I've adjusted life. Once I realize what is going on, I can relax some on the temporary nature of it all. Sometimes it works better than others.

The thing is when depression hits, for me, it is much like this. All the freaking time. Work becomes a relief from home, home becomes a relief from work, sleep a relief from it all. I literally don't have the capacity to sort out which things in life to change or what to do next. I get stuck.

This is why it is a long-term preventative measure. Gotta catch this stuff before the darkness sets in and messes with your sensors.

Re: When You Are Depressed, Make Something

#227

Post by tgb »

jackpirate wrote: post #195
ZeroFries wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- However, depression is a disease independent of external factors. What? No disease is independent of external factors. You even list a bunch of things which affect it. Depression is a pattern, subject to countless factors. I think what you mean to say is, there isn't a single cause of depression, and it can manifest when many of the factors affecting it seem to be "pretty good", and it can not manifest when those f…

>What? No disease is independent of external factors. This statement is true only in the narrowest sense and is actively harmful to people with mental health issues. Let's compare depression and cancer to see why. It is common to say something like "cancer is independent of external factors" to mean that anyone can get cancer. It doesn't matter how healthy of a lifestyle you live. Due to random chance, the guy who re…

No one feels ashamed of seeking treatment for pneumonia, but there's no way you would say it's independent of external factors. That depression is affected by external factors should neither be controversial nor related to your concerns about society's acceptance of its treatment. You seem to be conflating "dependent on external factors" with "arises due to bad life decisions", which is bizarre as it's kinda the exact thing you're worried about.

Re: When You Are Depressed, Make Something

#228

Post by cpncrunch »

eivarv wrote: post #221
cpncrunch wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Those techniques are what you called "short term solutions." I think of them as long-term preventative measures to stave off the chemical imbalance that can cause depression What causes the chemical imbalances? Research on animals show that chronic stress causes depression, so it definitely can be caused by external factors. If your job is causing chronic stress then changing job is obviously a plausible cure for yo…

> Research on animals show that chronic stress causes depression... Source? That sounds like an oversimplification in my opinion, as there are some pretty glaring problems with using other animals to model mental illness in humans. Wouldn't the only real analogue be learned helplessness, or am I missing something?

See for example:

http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v33/n1/abs/1301574a.html

>there are some pretty glaring problems with using other animals to model mental illness in humans

Yes, but the research also looks into stress and depression in human subjects (see above).

Re: When You Are Depressed, Make Something

#229

Post by yellowapple »

lightedman wrote: post #148
jdietrich wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is advice for sadness, not depression. This is the opening quote in the article: "Sadness is when you feel down because things aren’t going your way. Depression is when you feel down even when all is going well." There's no mention of that in the DSM or the ICD. People with miserable lives can still be depressed; people can have miserable lives without recognising that their lives are miserable. There is no suc…

"There's no mention of that in the DSM" The DSM changes so often that I wouldn't really rely upon it for a definition.

Our understanding of psychology and the human brain changes so often that I'd have a hard time trusting a source that hasn't been recently updated.

Even with that said, the average time between DSM revisions is, what, every 15 years, give or take? I wouldn't exactly call that "often".

Re: When You Are Depressed, Make Something

#230

Post by cpncrunch »

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #226
cpncrunch wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Those techniques are what you called "short term solutions." I think of them as long-term preventative measures to stave off the chemical imbalance that can cause depression What causes the chemical imbalances? Research on animals show that chronic stress causes depression, so it definitely can be caused by external factors. If your job is causing chronic stress then changing job is obviously a plausible cure for yo…

To do that, you actually have to both be actually able to find and take a different job plus have the clarity to know that such a thing will improve your situation. And with depression (or anxiety), this isn't so easy. It gets difficult to see opportunities and easier to blame yourself, thinking, "I'm lucky to have this crappy job and that they put up with me". It can make your job seem crappy, even when it isn't. I…

Depression seems to be caused by both external factors (such as crappy job) and internal thought processes (worrying too much, negative thoughts, etc) or a combination. And some people are just more prone to depression than others. In your case it sounds like some kind of CBT, ACT or mindfulness therapy might be helpful.

Hormones are well known to interact with the stress system and exacerbate depression.

You make a good point about depression itself causing issues with (for example) your job, making it difficult to know what is the source of the problem. I think the best that people can do in this situation is to take a break from work, and think carefully about what they really want from life.

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