Live data from Hacker News

H-1B Visas: U.S. Lawmaker Re-Introduces Bill to Tighten Rules

blogs.wsj.com

351–360 of 387 posts

Re: H-1B Visas: U.S. Lawmaker Re-Introduces Bill to Tighten Rules

#351
post #86
post #39

Why not take a courageous approach and let people in who want to work? Don't tie them to one job. Don't pick arbitrary numbers of the 'right' number of immigrants. Don't try ever more complex schemes based on where people live and what job they do. Keep the government involved to vet them in terms of avoiding criminals, and let the market handle how many people to bring in, not government bureaucrats and politicians.…

One challenge is that people who grew up in America have totally different expectations in terms of quality of life and living standards than immigrants from poor countries who are willing to move here and start from scratch. A poor kid from India or China might move to Silicon Valley or NYC and spend a decade sharing a studio with 4-5 others in his/her situation, just for the chance to escape poverty back home. Is i…

>A poor kid from India or China might move to Silicon Valley or NYC and spend a decade sharing a studio with 4-5 others in his/her situation, just for the chance to escape poverty back home. Is it fair to force two people from such different backgrounds to compete?

You know, when four to five people share a studio, that's not just a labor competition issue. That's a fire code issue.

Re: H-1B Visas: U.S. Lawmaker Re-Introduces Bill to Tighten Rules

#352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds awesome considering those body shops use up most of the H-1B quota and significantly underpay their employees compared to industry wages. For example, somewhere between 47% and 85% of H-1Bs are being significantly underpaid compared to their peers, evidence that the program is not being used to bring over workers with "specialized knowledge" as they claim--but to drive down wages. It makes sense though, when y…

This pits new grads against people with many years of experience. If kids come to the US for their undergrad/masters/phd and want to work here, they're not going to be the highest paid people competing, but they might have more long term value and chance of truly integrating with the country.

That is correct. H1B is for highly skilled workers. If the new grad isn't the highest skilled worker, then the visa isn't for them.

Re: H-1B Visas: U.S. Lawmaker Re-Introduces Bill to Tighten Rules

#353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This pits new grads against people with many years of experience. If kids come to the US for their undergrad/masters/phd and want to work here, they're not going to be the highest paid people competing, but they might have more long term value and chance of truly integrating with the country.

That is correct. H1B is for highly skilled workers. If the new grad isn't the highest skilled worker, then the visa isn't for them.

Yeah, some of this is almost a product-management problem applied to law: Have a very clear goal for your legislation and don't try to make it so everything for everyone.

Re: H-1B Visas: U.S. Lawmaker Re-Introduces Bill to Tighten Rules

#354
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's the thing - if a corporation's "competitiveness" is dependent on a deeply coercive ability to control their employee's right to live and work in the US, with severely limited mobility rights for the worker, I'm not sure I care all that much. If you can't pay high enough wages to compete for talent that has the freedom to choose which job and industry they work in, then you're probably not a high value employer…

"dependent on a deeply coercive ability to control their employee's right to live and work in the US" This is a little misplaced I think. Google, FB et. al. are major users of H1 programs and I seriously doubt they are not 'high value employers'. 'The right to live and work' is governed by citizenship, which goes way beyond just economic issues. In the 'general case' the H1 program is valuable: US companies can bring…

On principle, I'm generally opposed to any arrangement where the employer controls the employee's right to live and work in the US. That includes bestowing the right in the first place, but it's especially pernicious when that power continues throughout the relationship.

Truth is, even "high value" employers like google are up to mischief. Remember that wage suppression no-hire collusion? I don't really trust them with this power, and not just because I generally don't trust corporations with this power. Google and the other participants in this no-hire scheme gave us good reason not to trust them in this regard.

Now, on a practical note, though, I think sometimes principles need fuzzy boundaries. It's bad PR for high tech employers to talk about a critical shortage of workers while firing $100k a year mid-level tech employees and requiring that they train their H1B replacements as a condition of receiving severance and 6 more months of employment as they scramble to find a new job. But in a same vein, it would be bad PR for critics of the H1B program to get too vocal about the "exploitation" of $250k+ a year SSE's at google. That would not play well in peoria.

Honestly, if we set a very high minimum salary for the H1B (say, 200k a year), I think the problems we see with it would largely fade - though I assure you tech employers would be up in arms[1].

100k does seem too low to me - not because tech employees are "entitled" to more than this (nobody is), but because generally, US employers are required to hire from the pool of people who currently have live/work rights in the US - a country with a population of 300 million that takes an additional 1.2 (roughly) legal immigrants into the country every year. We created the H1B visa largely because high tech employers claimed that they couldn't find critically needed highly skilled workers from this massive labor pool, so they needed the power to bestow (and maintain control over!) limited live/work rights in the US on new hires.

So we're talking about a unique and very serious power and privilege accorded to these companies, granted on the agreement that these are rare and unusual workers with high levels of skill who are supplementing, not displacing, the existing workforce. If a corporation wants that power, but then says 100k is too much to pay this worker (in the bay area, no less!), then I pretty much feel we should dismiss that claim with scorn, frankly. Seriously, this is an utterly critical worker to you and the US economy, you need this person to work in the most expensive city in the country, and 100k is too much? Look, sounds like you can compete for the existing labor workforce like everyone else.

Believe it or not, $250k a year isn't an outrageous salary for a highly skilled worker in San Francisco. That's hardly an unusual salary for a lawyer or physician, and many of these critical H1B hires do have advanced degrees in STEM fields, which at the elite level are arguably more difficult to obtain than law or MBA degrees.

But overall, yeah, I certainly wouldn't be arguing as vociferously against this visa if use were limited to people paid SSE level salaries at google. Nor, I suspect, would most of the people who object to it. The only objections you'd see there would be from the heavy users of this visa, especially the body shops.

[1] I do wonder if there's a good strategy in this for google and Facebook, though. Clearly, these companies are frustrated when they can't get enough visas. So far, their approach has been to lobby for expansion of the number of visas, but that is causing a PR problem at this point. If they were to get a much higher minimum salary - even 100k would help, $150 would be better - they would no longer have to contend with body shops snapping up all the visas. I'm honestly very cynical about this at this point, especially hearing Zoe Lofgren starting to criticize the program. But I think what is happening here is that the industry, and their allies in government, are starting to realize that the H1B program, because of the serious abuses, is gaining a very bad reputation, and they're at risk of losing it. It makes strategic sense to get out ahead of this and reform it so that google can still use it but the body shops can't get visas.

Re: H-1B Visas: U.S. Lawmaker Re-Introduces Bill to Tighten Rules

#355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds awesome considering those body shops use up most of the H-1B quota and significantly underpay their employees compared to industry wages. For example, somewhere between 47% and 85% of H-1Bs are being significantly underpaid compared to their peers, evidence that the program is not being used to bring over workers with "specialized knowledge" as they claim--but to drive down wages. It makes sense though, when y…

I think a generic rhetoric that Indian outsourcing companies just drive down wages is plain wrong. Most of the contracts that these guys bag are long term maintenance type contracts. The companies that are awarding these contracts are doing so mostly because they are stuck with legacy software that are hard to replace. The replacements costs are typically higher than the 5 year maintenance costs. It's no wonder that…

Are you arguing that H1B's are less talented and that's why they're paid less?

Re: H-1B Visas: U.S. Lawmaker Re-Introduces Bill to Tighten Rules

#356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>No, you can use your old I140 to extend your H1B for another 3 years That is based on the _assumption_ the previous employer did not withdraw the old I-140. I wouldn't recommend that to any H1B visa holder.

Yes it is based on an assumption you work for a _legitimate_ employer and not some shady consultant. I'll use your statement to prove that it's a fair assumption in the average case. > So, say I set aside 1 year for the new employer to get all the internal budgeting approvals and initiate my GC process On one hand, you claim that it takes a year for the employer to get your GC going. And now to withdraw it (which wil…

>On one hand, you claim that it takes a year for the employer to get your GC going. And now to withdraw it (which will include the same filing fee + lawyer fees - time spent= thousands of dollars) it takes them less than a month (or few months) to budget this?

Why do you say withdrawal need to be done in a month? To pack-up an H1-B visa holder, withdrawal only has to be done within the 2.5 years.

Also, withdrawing I-140 is more about sending a message to the other H1-B employees to not leave. Companies are glad to cough up few hundred bucks to send that message.

Re: H-1B Visas: U.S. Lawmaker Re-Introduces Bill to Tighten Rules

#357
post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example company B might not have the resources/revenue to outbid company A. If Company B doesn't have the resources to outbid Company A then we've decided, as a society, that whatever Company A is doing is more important that what Company B is doing. > Another counterexample of many for why an auction system is terrible: employee y could be a research scientist in industry contributing to the foundation of a ne…

> If Company B doesn't have the resources to outbid Company A then we've decided, as a society, that whatever Company A is doing is more important that what Company B is doing. The question being - has that been decided in a fair manner?

Would it be fair for the candidate to not get the highest wage possible? I don't see how this problem is any different than trying to get non-immigrant labor. Company A is offering a significantly higher salary to a citizen than Company B, they'll probably get the candidate.

Re: H-1B Visas: U.S. Lawmaker Re-Introduces Bill to Tighten Rules

#358
post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"dependent on a deeply coercive ability to control their employee's right to live and work in the US" This is a little misplaced I think. Google, FB et. al. are major users of H1 programs and I seriously doubt they are not 'high value employers'. 'The right to live and work' is governed by citizenship, which goes way beyond just economic issues. In the 'general case' the H1 program is valuable: US companies can bring…

On principle, I'm generally opposed to any arrangement where the employer controls the employee's right to live and work in the US. That includes bestowing the right in the first place, but it's especially pernicious when that power continues throughout the relationship. Truth is, even "high value" employers like google are up to mischief. Remember that wage suppression no-hire collusion? I don't really trust them wi…

" I'm generally opposed to any arrangement where the employer controls the employee's right to live and work in the US. "

Ok, I see what you are saying there, but the 'right' to work in the US is based on someone's ability to fulfill a specific role, ergo, fair I think.

The terms are very open and stated clearly.

The person is not granted 'the right to live in the US' they are granted the 'right to reside in the US and work for ABC'.

Given that it's temporary, they should not be cutting ties back home etc..

It's not a 'special power' unless people are coming from really desperate conditions, wherein having to return home would be a negative outcome.

I lived and worked in the US on an H1 and see no problem with in this regard.

Re: H-1B Visas: U.S. Lawmaker Re-Introduces Bill to Tighten Rules

#359
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"if the salary isn't really high..." How high? Why is 100k a magic number? 100k isn't even a big deal in SF or NYC. While a high skilled scientist working in say, Corning, NY at Corning Corp or Niskayuna, NY at GE's research labs, 100k enables a king's life. How would you adjust for experience? Perhaps a company sees immense potential and cultural fit in an employee and wants to groom them for future roles? The wages…

Why shouldn't they? Salary is proportional to economic value. Shouldn't we be trying to maximize the economic value generated through the H1-B program?

Not necessarily. We should also be trying to make sure that it isn't used as a cheap replacement for citizen labor.

Re: H-1B Visas: U.S. Lawmaker Re-Introduces Bill to Tighten Rules

#360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its stupid to begin with, if you can't fill a skill, train somebody, the federal government does this for gigs that require security clearance. You never need to go outside the country for talent. The h1b program enables age discrimination, once you hit 40 you are pushed out for young immigrant labor, the position was occupied but they want to save money so out you go to poverty just when the IRS was counting on you…

> You never need to go outside the country for talent. I'm a natural-born citizen with plenty of friends who were unlucky to be born elsewhere. I want to work with them. Can't the government accommodate my simple desire to work with my friends locally?

There are plenty of citizens who desire to have work. Can't the government accommodate their simple desire to be able to support their families?
Post reply on HN