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Software Developers Should Have Sysadmin Experience

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Re: Software Developers Should Have Sysadmin Experience

#371

Post by BinaryIdiot »

mattmanser wrote: post #344
BinaryIdiot wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then you were lucky. I worked in 3 Microsoft dev shops and 1 that had a mixture. As far as I know I hadn't heard of anyone having issues getting it installed except for the rare, occasional error that could be Googled and fixed. I'm not sure I'd call that luck, sounds like you just had a bad experience. But yeah back in the day it was a stack of discs (I think the last disc version I used had 2 discs for visual stu…

There were 40 DVDs in a MSDN subscription in 2004, so not sure what you're talking about, you might have had the cheapo one?

OHHH

So the MSDN subscription is different. The MSDN subscription is the full Microsoft catalog of software. Every version of Visual Studio, every Windows, Office, MSDN documentation; it's literally everything.

The parents above were talking about just installing Visual Studio. When you purchase Visual Studio it was usually 2-6 discs in my experience (most containing the MSDN documentation). But the MSDN subscription is a very different beast. Granted there should have still been a Visual Studio disc for a specific architecture that you were using and your group should have known if they're using Professional, Team, etc as you'd likely need the same.

That was a fun misunderstanding though :)

Re: Software Developers Should Have Sysadmin Experience

#372

Post by jstimpfle »

jdbernard wrote: post #337
gaius wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The new things you need to develop new features are far and far between 99% of web software written these days could fulfil identical use cases on an IBM 3270 from 40 years ago. You enter something into a form and it gets stored in a database. You enter something into a field and it generates a report. That's all Amazon, Facebook, Google, any e-commerce site are. Sure it might be nice to use a new version of that new…

And yet none of those things did arise 40 years ago. All of the nuances of all the code written since then make a difference, despite duplicating "identical use cases".

You didn't come up with that idea, but it's not about "40 years ago".

Re: Software Developers Should Have Sysadmin Experience

#373

Post by user5994461 »

eropple wrote: post #314
eeZah7Ux wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the rise of devops system engineering knowledge is being lost. I often see developers trying to replace it with bloated, complex piles of hipster software. While a devops team is attempting to build a toy Google-like infrastructure on 50 nodes for weeks, another company is deploying code just fine using some 15 years old setup with netboot + disk imaging system + OS packages.

I don't think this is true at all. Which is not to defend or even endorse the Kubernetes wank, "devops" is also "hey, we have codified what our systems look like in code (with Chef/CloudFormation/etc.)." Which is a hell of a step up from what existed prior. That I occasionally have to then go debug why AWS's Xen network drivers are spitting the bit or why this application's disk access patterns are making EBS sad cer…

> Which is a hell of a step up from what existed prior.

Not accurate. A lot of new-stuff is just old-stuff we've had forever with a new name and branding. Worse, a lot of "new" stuff is too low quality to be reliable and/or gonna die/be obsoleted very soon.

Old shops who took development seriously have developed internal tooling, customized to their internal needs. It can be surprising how well it can hold the comparison against new hype software.

Re: Software Developers Should Have Sysadmin Experience

#374

Post by eropple »

user5994461 wrote: post #373
eropple wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is true at all. Which is not to defend or even endorse the Kubernetes wank, "devops" is also "hey, we have codified what our systems look like in code (with Chef/CloudFormation/etc.)." Which is a hell of a step up from what existed prior. That I occasionally have to then go debug why AWS's Xen network drivers are spitting the bit or why this application's disk access patterns are making EBS sad cer…

> Which is a hell of a step up from what existed prior. Not accurate. A lot of new-stuff is just old-stuff we've had forever with a new name and branding. Worse, a lot of "new" stuff is too low quality to be reliable and/or gonna die/be obsoleted very soon. Old shops who took development seriously have developed internal tooling, customized to their internal needs. It can be surprising how well it can hold the compar…

"A lot of" old stuff is low-quality--but it's what we've got and the creator works here and he likes it, so we use it. See? I can generalize too.

And, friendly advice: I assure you that you meant to write "I disagree", not "not accurate". Don't be That Guy. Never be That Guy.

Re: Software Developers Should Have Sysadmin Experience

#375

Post by user5994461 »

eropple wrote: post #374
user5994461 wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Which is a hell of a step up from what existed prior. Not accurate. A lot of new-stuff is just old-stuff we've had forever with a new name and branding. Worse, a lot of "new" stuff is too low quality to be reliable and/or gonna die/be obsoleted very soon. Old shops who took development seriously have developed internal tooling, customized to their internal needs. It can be surprising how well it can hold the compar…

"A lot of" old stuff is low-quality--but it's what we've got and the creator works here and he likes it, so we use it. See? I can generalize too. And, friendly advice: I assure you that you meant to write "I disagree", not "not accurate". Don't be That Guy. Never be That Guy.

If old and new both suck. There is no gain in migrating to newer ;)

Re: Software Developers Should Have Sysadmin Experience

#376

Post by eropple »

user5994461 wrote: post #375
eropple wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"A lot of" old stuff is low-quality--but it's what we've got and the creator works here and he likes it, so we use it. See? I can generalize too. And, friendly advice: I assure you that you meant to write "I disagree", not "not accurate". Don't be That Guy. Never be That Guy.

If old and new both suck. There is no gain in migrating to newer ;)

But they don't both suck. Newer tools reflect the needs of newer problems. Like, I can point to exactly what I get from my Chef/Cfer stack--I can wrangle hundreds of concurrent machines that need to update to a policy while also getting, in a standardized and predictable format, a full itemization of all changes applied to all systems. I can leverage the community, too, to help me bootstrap new features and functionality because we're speaking a shared language.

They might be new tools to you, and being skeptical of new stuff is fine (even healthy), but there's a point at which skepticism turns into Ludditism and it's well before the point where one starts to bloviate about "hipster software".

Re: Software Developers Should Have Sysadmin Experience

#377

Post by user5994461 »

WorldMaker wrote: post #352
user5994461 wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly. Developers should stop thinking that their jobs is to release features all the time at all costs. That's simply not true and that's counter productive for the business.

If only the business might learn that it's not their jobs to request new features all the time at all costs... If only customers weren't fickle and might learn not to demand new features all the time whatever the costs... It's turtles all the way down.

And in the end, that's the developer who always gets the decision. Does he ships half assed half finished every single time, or does he take time to do some testing and not break production.

Re: Software Developers Should Have Sysadmin Experience

#378

Post by eropple »

WhitneyLand wrote: post #330
eropple wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I strongly disagree with this, from experience. There is no difference between a "developer" and a "sysadmin" in a healthy shop in 2016. It's all the same job. Until you actually put something into practice in a hostile environment you have no idea what rakes are going to be in that yard. I would be a bad developer if I did not understand how the systems my code runs on worked. I would be a bad sysadmin if I couldn't…

>There is no difference between a "developer" and a "sysadmin" Ridiculous. Many developers have specialties that take years to gain proficiency. If there were no difference we could just replace a math PhD doing computer graphics with a sysadmin. Sometimes it's possible, but the blanket statement does not hold up. >I would be a bad developer if I did not understand how the systems my code runs on work I agree, but so…

> Why are you so against that word?

Because, to be frank: it makes you sound like a tool. That's what 'greglindahl was referring to in his post, 'cause I said exactly that before I edited it to assume good faith and be nice about it. But leading off your reply with "ridiculous" confirmed that you're okay with that. I'm not gonna play this game with you; I'm having way more interesting and way better conversations in this thread with people who don't wanna dance that dance. Haveaniceday.

Re: Software Developers Should Have Sysadmin Experience

#379

Post by user5994461 »

eropple wrote: post #376
user5994461 wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If old and new both suck. There is no gain in migrating to newer ;)

But they don't both suck. Newer tools reflect the needs of newer problems. Like, I can point to exactly what I get from my Chef/Cfer stack--I can wrangle hundreds of concurrent machines that need to update to a policy while also getting, in a standardized and predictable format, a full itemization of all changes applied to all systems. I can leverage the community, too, to help me bootstrap new features and functiona…

It's funny you'd quote Chef (or puppet), because they've been replaced by Ansible/Salt.

I spend a lot of time evaluating new tools, possibly more so than anyone else in this tread. There are very few novelties which solve a problem notably better than what existed before AND are reliable enough for serious usage AND don't come with so many drawbacks that it nullify their interests.

Re: Software Developers Should Have Sysadmin Experience

#380

Post by user5994461 »

dozzie wrote: post #356
user5994461 wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's terrible. If I'm a Python dev, why should a sysadmin who doesn't even know Python tell me what version of a library I will use? What if the sysadmin can code in the same language as you, faster and with less bugs?

Better yet: what if the sysadmin can code better and faster in the same language and also three others ?

That would be me!
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