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Just how smart is an octopus?

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Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#111

Post by ClassyJacket »

pacaro wrote: post #72
komali2 wrote: post #64

Total anecdote here, but when I volunteered at our aquarium in Charleston, SC (amazing aquarium, go check it out), we had a problem where our flounder were vanishing from their tank. We suspected theft and so put a camera up in the back room. The next time flounder disappeared we checked the feed - one of our octopi was escaping from his tank that we thought we had already anti-octopus'd, climbing over the walls, bre…

Pedantic mode here: linguistically it should be octopodes (but nobody who isn't speaking Greek would say that); by usage it should be octopuses; octopi or octopii are just wrong (it's not a second declension noun, despite the 'us' ending)

You just can't win with grammar Nazis. If they'd written octopuses, someone would be in here telling them "It's octopi".

Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#112

Post by Florin_Andrei »

virmundi wrote: post #43
overcast wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the side effect of being self conscious beings, with the capacity of understanding things deeper than survival 101. If other animals had this capacity, you can't say it's just man made thing.

You've made it a side-effect. As a conscious being I know that there is a circle of life. I know that animals eat each other. I know that without getting into franen-foods, the human body evolved to eat other animals too. You picked an ethic. Probably because it felt good. I too picked an ethic. Mine is Christian with a good deal of Epicurean infusion. Religiously I believe we can eat animals, but need to care for th…

> As a conscious being I know that there is a circle of life

I would argue there are two pre-requisites for that: consciousness, and culture.

With no culture, starting from zero, during the limited span of a single life, it would be pretty hard to come up with grand concepts such as the circle of life.

Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#113

Post by virmundi »

chc wrote: post #103
virmundi wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is an argument against an absolute truth. Ironically, the absolute truth is, under an agnostic view, there is no Truth. Every ethics system that we have is a might makes right. People need to realize this. When someone makes any ethics claim they have to realize that it is at best only useful for a specific location and point in time. Eating animals or not is a preference. Who we keep alive and who we don't is too…

The words "truth" and "god" are not synonyms. I don't know if there is a god, but I feel quite certain there are things that are true.

Why? Let me limit that a bit: why are there ethical/moral truths? There are probably statistical truths. Such as generally don't kill people. However, every society has loopholes or outs for such a law. What leads you to believe that there is a universal truth especially in light of the fact that the universe does little to actively preserve life, and doesn't seem to evolve too many creates that could even care.

Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#114

Post by overcast »

Pxtl wrote: post #109
enugu wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apart from cognitive skills, an important factor is the capacity of suffering. So even dumb animals might be able to feel intense pain. In humans, while forms of suffering like loneliness, depression can be bad, pure physical pain can itself a terrible thing. For instance severe torture for 10 minutes can be worse than months of depression. Now even if cognitive aspects are diminished in animals, the physical senses…

Great article on eating lobsters by the inimitable, late David Foster Wallace: http://www.gourmet.com/magazine/2000s/2004/08/consider_the_l...

Good lord, ten pages.

Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#115

Post by FreeFull »

tzs wrote: post #84
bduerst wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went diving with a retired marine biologist who said, half-jokingly, that if octopodes had ever formed the same tribal culture as primates that we would have been competing with them for dominance at some point.

Fortunately for us, they have two biological strikes against developing that kind of culture. 1. They have short lifespans, limiting how much knowledge and wisdom an individual can acquire over its lifetime. 2. Reproduction is fatal. Males dies a few months after mating. Females spend all their time after the eggs are laid guarding them, and neglect to eat. They die of starvation around the time the eggs hatch. The o…

I also suspect it's a lot harder to advance technologically when you live underwater. One of the big boosts to human evolution was the mastery of fire and development of cooking.

Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#116

Post by rgbrenner »

komali2 wrote: post #64

Total anecdote here, but when I volunteered at our aquarium in Charleston, SC (amazing aquarium, go check it out), we had a problem where our flounder were vanishing from their tank. We suspected theft and so put a camera up in the back room. The next time flounder disappeared we checked the feed - one of our octopi was escaping from his tank that we thought we had already anti-octopus'd, climbing over the walls, bre…

he broke back into his own tank after

Octopus have dens that they only leave to eat and mate. they always return to their den after, and they only move every few weeks. So wouldnt that be normal behavior?

I guess he could have moved his den to the flounder tank.. but maybe he just found out where it was, and caught him before he decided where to move to. or maybe there was something about the flounder tank that made it difficult to find a good spot.

Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#117

Post by Pxtl »

overcast wrote: post #114
Pxtl wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great article on eating lobsters by the inimitable, late David Foster Wallace: http://www.gourmet.com/magazine/2000s/2004/08/consider_the_l...

Good lord, ten pages.

There is no TL;DR version of DFW's prose, you read his stuff because it's fun, not to get to the point.

Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#118

Post by oneeyedpigeon »

ch4s3 wrote: post #69
oneeyedpigeon wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen an experiment in which pigs controlled an object on a screen, using a 'joystick', by controlling it with their snout. It certainly looked as if they were demonstrating a level of intelligence.

I read about that study as well, it's what I was thinking of when I made the previous comment! Cool stuff! Do you have a link by any chance?

All I know is that it was a TV programme in the UK; sorry, I know that's not very useful!

Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#119

Post by kefka »

oneeyedpigeon wrote: post #26
smeyer wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the route I took. I'm a meat-eater and eat plenty of it (including pork, which someone else mentioned in this thread), but I decided to stop eating octopodes. It feels a little funny compared to people who avoid meat in general or eat all of it, but at least for now it's the only thing I don't eat.

I bet there are other mammals you 'don't' eat - at least, that you'd refuse to eat. Man is the obvious one, but what about other primates, elephants, giraffes, etc.? I bet there are more animals that you don't eat than you do , and maybe there are even more that you would not be prepared to eat than you would .

Not really..

I would consider heating human. I have nothing against another mammal. However, I would require humane treatment of said human (or any animal or byproduct I eat).

I'm not going to pretend I'm some morally superior being. But I'd like to at least reduce suffering of beings. After all, something else must die for me to eat (and I can't live on milk and honey).

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