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Software Developers Should Have Sysadmin Experience

blog.professorbeekums.com

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Re: Software Developers Should Have Sysadmin Experience

#281

Post by krylon »

kefka wrote: post #199
krylon wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AMEN!!! In my current job, I am wearing both hats, and while I like that there is a certain variety in my work, users calling for help is highly disruptive when programming or doing some other stuff that requires deep focus. The upside that in a three-person IT department there is very little bureaucracy to fight, just the odd "organically grown" legacy system.

As an aside, did you know that the word "Amen" actually is a acronym in the Jewish language that means "El melekh neʾeman" (or AMN) which translates to "God, trustworthy King". (source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amen ) I figured the etymology of that word was rather interesting. But yeah, I get the whole SysAd/Dev dual job. They're tough to balance and do effectively. SysAds are firefighters. When the nag(ios) al…

> As an aside, did you know that the word "Amen" actually is a acronym in the Jewish language that means "El melekh neʾeman" (or AMN) which translates to "God, trustworthy King". (source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amen)

I did not know that. ;-) Thanks!

Re: Software Developers Should Have Sysadmin Experience

#282

Post by gaius »

eternalban wrote: post #268
AlexB138 wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Sys Admin turned Automation/Tools Engineer, I think you're missing part of the point. You've got the beginning of it right in saying that Sys Admins used to be involved in pinning down versions, and even in why that was necessary, but I believe you're incorrect in saying that the containerization technologies are bad for removing that. Those technologies don't exist so Developers can get around Sys Admins and ig…

I agree with OP and would amend his statement to "15 years ago, when a project would kick-off, [sysadmins & architects would] be invited ..." From an architectural point of view, microservices take the reductionist approach to system design to an absurd limit, and per my professional experience (fwiw & ymmv) are due to the general architectural illiteracy of the rank and file practitioners in this field.

Right, microservices isn't "architecture". It is - whether they know it or not - an admission that "we can't do architecture so we'll chuck it over the fence and let the ops people worry about how it all hangs together".

Re: Software Developers Should Have Sysadmin Experience

#283

Post by protomyth »

Actually, I would rather language and tool designers have a go at a true System Admin job. There is a reason PHP gets installed by default and Ruby on Rails does not.

Frankly, at the end of the day, most businesses don't want something that was "working" breaking. All the conflict comes from that one desire. There is a reason System Admins have to do the "Patch Tuesday" dance and despise any software that just updates by itself. Getting yelled at because Chrome updated to a version not supported by your ISV or your local developers is an amazingly fun experience.

Yep, System Admins have to be the company nanny. It sucks, but the apps need to keep working.

Re: Software Developers Should Have Sysadmin Experience

#284

Post by thebeardisred »

brianwawok wrote: post #184
bandrami wrote: post #164

As a grumpy evil sysadmin, I think the good Professor misses where the real disconnect is, at least nowadays: stack management. Why do things like Docker exist? Because developers got tired of sysadmins saying "sorry, you can't upgrade Ruby in the middle of this project". Why does virtualenv exist? A similar reason. Containerized ecosystems (which is to say basically all of them now) are really a sign of those of us…

That's terrible. If I'm a Python dev, why should a sysadmin who doesn't even know Python tell me what version of a library I will use? I have regression tests to catch if an upgrade breaks anyyhing. What does a sysadmin have to approve or deny an upgrade? A little beard stroking and changelog reading? I think the movement towards containers is like you said, to keep sysadmins off the code. Sysadmins add value in sett…

To call out something that nobody else mentioned: because when you to use that newer version of pycurl or pyASN1 it's probably going to break the system level tools for running patches, handling license enforcement, and being able to keep the database online for other teams.

I've had this problem over and over again (biggest one last being with the US Census). Folks insisted on upgrading a python library and auth to the hosts stopped working.

Re: Software Developers Should Have Sysadmin Experience

#285

Post by koffiezet »

bandrami wrote: post #196
pjmorris wrote: post #12

Should sysadmins have software development experience (e.g. DevOps)? For what values should 'X have Y experience?' Should we go as far as... "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new proble…

It's pretty much impossible to be a sysadmin without writing some software, though I acknowledge we sysadmins have a tendency to use duct tape (there's a reason Perl is the sysadmin language) rather than a more solid adhesive. But whereas I've met tons of developers who have never maintained an installed system, I've never met a sysadmin who has not written a good deal of code.

> there's a reason Perl is the sysadmin language

That would be mostly Python these days. If someone here would touch Perl on my systems, they're gonna have a very bad day. Sure I wrote stuff in Perl back in the days, but those days are over.

I see this as Perl's problem: to be good enough at Perl, you'd have to frequently use it, but Perl is in my eyes only suitable for quick hacky run-once scripts - which should not be written frequently, so you shouldn't be good at Perl. My Perl is pretty damn rusty these days.

If someone is still writing large scripts/apps in Perl these days, I question their judgement in technologies and ability to keep up with the times. Sure you can write larger scripts in Perl - but what's the point? You have to take care not to make things unreadable, while when using something like Python, it's much harder to make a script that's unreadable.

Re: Software Developers Should Have Sysadmin Experience

#286

Post by [deleted] »

AlexB138 wrote: post #200
bandrami wrote: post #164

As a grumpy evil sysadmin, I think the good Professor misses where the real disconnect is, at least nowadays: stack management. Why do things like Docker exist? Because developers got tired of sysadmins saying "sorry, you can't upgrade Ruby in the middle of this project". Why does virtualenv exist? A similar reason. Containerized ecosystems (which is to say basically all of them now) are really a sign of those of us…

As a Sys Admin turned Automation/Tools Engineer, I think you're missing part of the point. You've got the beginning of it right in saying that Sys Admins used to be involved in pinning down versions, and even in why that was necessary, but I believe you're incorrect in saying that the containerization technologies are bad for removing that. Those technologies don't exist so Developers can get around Sys Admins and ig…

[deleted]

Re: Software Developers Should Have Sysadmin Experience

#287

Post by gaius »

AlexB138 wrote: post #200
bandrami wrote: post #164

As a grumpy evil sysadmin, I think the good Professor misses where the real disconnect is, at least nowadays: stack management. Why do things like Docker exist? Because developers got tired of sysadmins saying "sorry, you can't upgrade Ruby in the middle of this project". Why does virtualenv exist? A similar reason. Containerized ecosystems (which is to say basically all of them now) are really a sign of those of us…

As a Sys Admin turned Automation/Tools Engineer, I think you're missing part of the point. You've got the beginning of it right in saying that Sys Admins used to be involved in pinning down versions, and even in why that was necessary, but I believe you're incorrect in saying that the containerization technologies are bad for removing that. Those technologies don't exist so Developers can get around Sys Admins and ig…

It removes the underlying need for a Sys Admin to worry about the versions. Admins should see this as a good thing, but in my experience many dislike it because it takes them out of their Gatekeeper role

Yes and no. You can have strong feelings about which containerization technology to use and which version, without caring in the slightest about what's inside those containers. This is the attitude I have adopted because it offers a win-win.

Re: Software Developers Should Have Sysadmin Experience

#288

Post by sgift »

brightball wrote: post #270
treehau5 wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My comment to you two is -- why not both? Stability, sanity, all that is amazing, and a must have. But also bug-fixes, security improvements, and performance improvements are wonderful too, which tends to come with using up-to-date dependencies. The problem with the latter, as you mentioned, is when it introduces breaking API changes and is wholly not backwards compatible. This is not a "kids playing with toys wantin…

Backwards compatibility is seriously under appreciated. When I tell developers to ensure that their changes are backwards compatible, they tend to look at me like I'm green. I do not understand the disconnect that developers have with understanding all of the benefits that it brings. Yes, you have some extra code in your code base so it's less clean. You also have a stable environment as a result. The first affects o…

> Yes, you have some extra code in your code base so it's less clean. You also have a stable environment as a result. The first affects only your personal preference. The latter affects all of your developers and users.

Backward compatibility has real costs. You cannot restructure your code base as easy, you cannot deprecate bad ideas, cannot extend it as easy more and so on and so on. Sure, it also has real benefits (as you've stated), but missing the disadvantages while only highlighting the advantages is not a useful approaching, it only shows "your personal preference".

Re: Software Developers Should Have Sysadmin Experience

#289

Post by KallDrexx »

AlexB138 wrote: post #200
bandrami wrote: post #164

As a grumpy evil sysadmin, I think the good Professor misses where the real disconnect is, at least nowadays: stack management. Why do things like Docker exist? Because developers got tired of sysadmins saying "sorry, you can't upgrade Ruby in the middle of this project". Why does virtualenv exist? A similar reason. Containerized ecosystems (which is to say basically all of them now) are really a sign of those of us…

As a Sys Admin turned Automation/Tools Engineer, I think you're missing part of the point. You've got the beginning of it right in saying that Sys Admins used to be involved in pinning down versions, and even in why that was necessary, but I believe you're incorrect in saying that the containerization technologies are bad for removing that. Those technologies don't exist so Developers can get around Sys Admins and ig…

This has actually been a very insightful response to me.

After reading your comment it now occurs to me that Docker and other container systems are actually a huge organizational tool. One issue I have encountered at companies is keeping the IT and development departments on the same high level organizational incentives to keep political barriers from coming up between them (and conflicts arising).

Containers can help keep everyone's incentives aligned because System admins can focus on the actual administration aspects of the systems and infrastructure (that devs do not need to be concerned about, like vnet layouts and whatnot) while devs can focus on the actual development and deployment without having to have everything confirmed and approved by the IT departments.

Re: Software Developers Should Have Sysadmin Experience

#290

Post by awinder »

jstimpfle wrote: post #220
awinder wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 15 years ago, when a project would kick-off, as a sysadmin > I'd be invited in and the developers and I would hash out > what versions of each language and library involved the > project would use To wit: the new ideologies in infrastructure management are actually designed to solve the underlying problem that necessitated that kind of working setup. Why should the version of a lib in one part of the software someh…

Counter-wit: Why can't people get their software to work with the existing libs? Hint: It's very rarely that the existing libs disqualify.

Because those libraries have bugs, sometimes catastrophic ones. Sometimes they must update, due to API changes or other factors outside of their control. If your organization relies on keeping things static as a means to stability, one day that rule will have to break, and you may be pretty underprepared for it.
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