The Swedish Kings of Cyberwar • Hacker News Board

Re: The Swedish Kings of Cyberwar

#11

Post by croon » Mon, Jan 09, 2017, 4:09 PM UTC

berntb wrote: post #10

ggame wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does covertly overthrowing a democratically elected government, installing a dictator only to later invade count as two democracies going to war? Otherwise it sounds like a very big loophole and one the US uses all of the time.

>> all the time Uh? What examples [of deposing democracies then invading when the dictator becomes too oppressive] exist after the cold war? Edit: Point is, there was a war of influence in the cold war; dictators played Soviet/West against each others for support. E.g. South Korea and Taiwan became democratic after the cold war, to not risk being ostracized.

Which one?

Also, why the limitation?

Re: The Swedish Kings of Cyberwar

#12

Post by kurthr » Mon, Jan 09, 2017, 4:10 PM UTC

berntb wrote: post #10

ggame wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does covertly overthrowing a democratically elected government, installing a dictator only to later invade count as two democracies going to war? Otherwise it sounds like a very big loophole and one the US uses all of the time.

>> all the time Uh? What examples [of deposing democracies then invading when the dictator becomes too oppressive] exist after the cold war? Edit: Point is, there was a war of influence in the cold war; dictators played Soviet/West against each others for support. E.g. South Korea and Taiwan became democratic after the cold war, to not risk being ostracized.

Yeah, even Reagan (Grenada & Panama) and the Bushes (Panama & Iraq) pretty much installed democracies.

The world is slightly different after Kissinger left office (Argentina)... realpolitik is really more of a Euro-Russian thing than a US thing. Although that could change again with the new president.

Re: The Swedish Kings of Cyberwar

#13

Post by kushti » Mon, Jan 09, 2017, 4:11 PM UTC

berntb wrote: post #9

moogly wrote: post #7

It's pretty disheartening to know that the Swedish press won't touch this with a 10-foot pole; they're busy digging/drumming up the "good ole" Russian Scare from the 60s/70s right now amidst the sabre-rattling coming, frankly, largely from the West.

>> sabre-rattling coming, frankly, largely from the West Uh, the Western democracies have started to do wars in Europe for territory? :-) After Soviet fell, the NATO forces (and the neutral countries) in Europe melted away; the US/Canadian units in Germany went home and so on. This changed after Russia started to rebuild and do wars. Edit: This was about the new "sabre rattling". Long, long after the Balkan horrible…

Wrong, Balkan wars were after Soviet fell

Re: The Swedish Kings of Cyberwar

#14

Post by lern_too_spel » Mon, Jan 09, 2017, 4:14 PM UTC

Don't they have any editors? "Over the following weeks and months, Snowden’s revelations about the NSA’s global surveillance efforts, and in particular its bulk data collection program, called PRISM," has been known to be wrong for a few years now. This calls the rest of the reporting into question.

Re: The Swedish Kings of Cyberwar

#15

Post by ommunist » Mon, Jan 09, 2017, 4:16 PM UTC

Very funny. Russia is actually gated with the Internet through Sweden and Finland. It is really easy to wage cyberwars, sitting on the supply cable.

Re: The Swedish Kings of Cyberwar

#16

Post by krona » Mon, Jan 09, 2017, 4:17 PM UTC

moogly wrote: post #7

It's pretty disheartening to know that the Swedish press won't touch this with a 10-foot pole; they're busy digging/drumming up the "good ole" Russian Scare from the 60s/70s right now amidst the sabre-rattling coming, frankly, largely from the West.

The anti-NATO propaganda in Sweden is also tearfully inaccurate at times.

Re: The Swedish Kings of Cyberwar

#17

Post by oskarth » Mon, Jan 09, 2017, 4:23 PM UTC

croon wrote: post #3

Interesting read for a variety of reasons. As a countryman of Sweden, I think it's sad that we've been playing lapdog throughout history. Germany during WW2, and now the US. The article refers to much less publicized occurances, but there's also lesser stories (but important signaling) like the piratebay court cases farce. Is Russia up next as our masters, when they want to secure their fiber pipeline? It's in cases…

As another Swede, 100% agree. For another example, look into how Sweden treated Raoul Wallenberg who courageously saved 100 000 Jews in Budapest during WW2. I can highly recommend this book: https://www.amazon.com/Wallenberg-Marton/dp/B005X8V19S/

Sweden is great in lots of ways, but that attitude in combination with Sweden's often holier-than-thou attitude towards other countries is really hypocritical.

PS. As an aside, I remember when I studied mathematics in Stockholm a few years ago and there were FRA posters for cryptography internships on the wall. It seemed intriguing, if it wasn't for the employer. DS.

Re: The Swedish Kings of Cyberwar

#18

Post by tormeh » Mon, Jan 09, 2017, 4:29 PM UTC

kurthr wrote: post #12

berntb wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> all the time Uh? What examples [of deposing democracies then invading when the dictator becomes too oppressive] exist after the cold war? Edit: Point is, there was a war of influence in the cold war; dictators played Soviet/West against each others for support. E.g. South Korea and Taiwan became democratic after the cold war, to not risk being ostracized.

Yeah, even Reagan (Grenada & Panama) and the Bushes (Panama & Iraq) pretty much installed democracies. The world is slightly different after Kissinger left office (Argentina)... realpolitik is really more of a Euro-Russian thing than a US thing. Although that could change again with the new president.

You mean the US's middle East policy hasn't been driven by realpolitik? That it was idealistic? Why the has the US propped up so many dictatorships? Saudi Arabia?

Re: The Swedish Kings of Cyberwar

#19

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jan 09, 2017, 4:30 PM UTC

croon wrote: post #3

Interesting read for a variety of reasons. As a countryman of Sweden, I think it's sad that we've been playing lapdog throughout history. Germany during WW2, and now the US. The article refers to much less publicized occurances, but there's also lesser stories (but important signaling) like the piratebay court cases farce. Is Russia up next as our masters, when they want to secure their fiber pipeline? It's in cases…

[deleted]

Re: The Swedish Kings of Cyberwar

#20

Post by at-fates-hands » Mon, Jan 09, 2017, 4:31 PM UTC

kurthr wrote: post #12

berntb wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> all the time Uh? What examples [of deposing democracies then invading when the dictator becomes too oppressive] exist after the cold war? Edit: Point is, there was a war of influence in the cold war; dictators played Soviet/West against each others for support. E.g. South Korea and Taiwan became democratic after the cold war, to not risk being ostracized.

Yeah, even Reagan (Grenada & Panama) and the Bushes (Panama & Iraq) pretty much installed democracies. The world is slightly different after Kissinger left office (Argentina)... realpolitik is really more of a Euro-Russian thing than a US thing. Although that could change again with the new president.

>> Bushes (Panama & Iraq) pretty much installed democracies.

I would use the word "democracy" pretty loosely when it comes to Iraq.

A consistent insurgency with widespread sectarian violence and much of the Sunni population not taking part in the elections, it was hardly what anybody would deem a "democracy".