Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Software Developers Should Have Sysadmin Experience

blog.professorbeekums.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

231–240 of 424 posts

Re: Software Developers Should Have Sysadmin Experience

#231

Post by gnarbarian »

bandrami wrote: post #188
brianwawok wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's terrible. If I'm a Python dev, why should a sysadmin who doesn't even know Python tell me what version of a library I will use? I have regression tests to catch if an upgrade breaks anyyhing. What does a sysadmin have to approve or deny an upgrade? A little beard stroking and changelog reading? I think the movement towards containers is like you said, to keep sysadmins off the code. Sysadmins add value in sett…

why should a sysadmin who doesn't even know Python tell me what version of a library I will use Because he maintains that installation and you don't? But, yeah, that's why virtualenv, Docker, etc. were invented, because devs kept getting sick of installations having consequences. What does a sysadmin have to approve or deny an upgrade? Check for conflicts of this version of this library with other software currently…

Developers tend to fall into the trap of believing we are better than sysadmins but there is immense value in having talented admins around. I have recently experienced this first hand watching someone breeze through server archaeology and vitlrtualization tasks that I struggled through and may never have been able to accomplish in a reasonable amount of time. When admins and programmers recognize each other's strengths and play to them it is a rewarding experience. We just have to realize that we're on the same team.

Also, docker (and containerization in general) is a wonderful thing for both of us. It decouples the fickle apps from systems (also moving targets) and the other apps which are constantly seeking out new and creative version incompatibilities. It makes migration and maintenance a much less frustrating endeavor with fewer surprises along the way.

Re: Software Developers Should Have Sysadmin Experience

#232

Post by FLUX-YOU »

devdas wrote: post #213
FLUX-YOU wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Development is sadly the job that is becoming the kitchen sink of "You ought to have skill X" where X is anything from sysadmin, computer science, business, security, product, bare-metal, networking, infrastructure, management, statistics, operating systems, math, social, and industry knowledge. If you aggregate all of the "Every developer should know X" posts and blogs, the list would probably be very long. It only…

Writing software is less useful than writing working, relevant software. The latter needs far more breadth than simply writing code.

Product managers, especially technical ones, can bridge that gap without being too deep in either skillset. A PM, on the other hand, isn't expected to know all of the nuances and gotchas or frameworks of whatever language the devs are working in.

Devs will slowly learn the relevant knowledge anyway, just at a slower pace than the immediate needs. And yes, after a certain number of years, that dev could be good at both. But you can't only hire devs good in both places for every position at every company.

Re: Software Developers Should Have Sysadmin Experience

#233

Post by amorphid »

iask wrote: post #226
AlexB138 wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Sys Admin turned Automation/Tools Engineer, I think you're missing part of the point. You've got the beginning of it right in saying that Sys Admins used to be involved in pinning down versions, and even in why that was necessary, but I believe you're incorrect in saying that the containerization technologies are bad for removing that. Those technologies don't exist so Developers can get around Sys Admins and ig…

At what point do you determine who is responsible for securing the environment? The "Gatekeeper" mentality is stemming from this. There is no clear line in any organization and I see the blame-game all the time.

That's kind of like asking which employees at a bank are responsible for keeping cash in the vault. Hopefully it’s a group effort.

Re: Software Developers Should Have Sysadmin Experience

#234

Post by LoSboccacc »

hueving wrote: post #229
LoSboccacc wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> thrown code over a wall without having tested it this is the weirdest part of the whole devops mantra. like, I know how to evaluate the complexity and memory requirement of code way before I write it and I guess most compsci should be able to do the same. so either it's yet one more attempt in getting cheap labor into workable territory or plenty people where this myth originated are being cheated out of their mone…

>the complexity and memory requirement of code Those are only tiny slices of real production bugs. No amount of complexity analysis of your code ahead of time is going to protect you from all of the issues that arise with integrating any large system dealing with lots of requests. You run into all kinds of things like query optimization, kernel TCP tuning, load balancer problems, cache thrashing, high latency clients…

funny how most of the things you list are either stuff that can be audited in code alone (query optimization, cache thrashing) or totally out of control of the developer (load balancer issues, tcp tuning)

sure if you bounce them all up like that it might look like you have a point, except it falls apart when you attribute concerns properly.

or please explain, how would dealing with kernel tcp tuning part-time help Joe Random developer write better code?

Re: Software Developers Should Have Sysadmin Experience

#235

Post by ajford »

SomeStupidPoint wrote: post #208
AlexB138 wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Sys Admin turned Automation/Tools Engineer, I think you're missing part of the point. You've got the beginning of it right in saying that Sys Admins used to be involved in pinning down versions, and even in why that was necessary, but I believe you're incorrect in saying that the containerization technologies are bad for removing that. Those technologies don't exist so Developers can get around Sys Admins and ig…

Doesn't that constant updating and lack of version oversight create security risks? Developers may not be as aware of those topics as sysadmins.

Isn't it just as bad to keep versions locked for months and years so we don't upset the delicate balance of versions on the production env?

I've worked at a place where they were running PHP 4.4.9 until about 8 months ago. And they were upgrading to 5.4! I get that it was work to convert a lot of the older code base to 5.4, but it was already passed EOL when they were switching to it. And 5.5 wasn't much behind it.

So now in the near future, they'll need to upgrade again (though they probably wont), and they'll probably jump to 5.6, which EOLs in two years (probably two years after it EOLs).

Re: Software Developers Should Have Sysadmin Experience

#236

Post by whyileft »

iask wrote: post #226
AlexB138 wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Sys Admin turned Automation/Tools Engineer, I think you're missing part of the point. You've got the beginning of it right in saying that Sys Admins used to be involved in pinning down versions, and even in why that was necessary, but I believe you're incorrect in saying that the containerization technologies are bad for removing that. Those technologies don't exist so Developers can get around Sys Admins and ig…

At what point do you determine who is responsible for securing the environment? The "Gatekeeper" mentality is stemming from this. There is no clear line in any organization and I see the blame-game all the time.

This is exactly the example I give when I try to explain to someone that managing through personal responsibility as opposed to team and organizational responsibility will grind your company productivity to a crawl.

Re: Software Developers Should Have Sysadmin Experience

#237

Post by jstimpfle »

adrianN wrote: post #227
jstimpfle wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counter-wit: Why can't people get their software to work with the existing libs? Hint: It's very rarely that the existing libs disqualify.

People could do great things just with punch cards, yet somehow technology kept marching on. If developers want to use newer stuff usually they have a good reason. The ability to hack around the deficiencies of old dependencies does not mean that one couldn't get a better, cheaper solution with newer technology.

> People could do great things just with punch cards, yet somehow technology kept marching on.

That's not the situation I've described - punch cards disqualify.

The situation I mean is where developers insist on writing software on version X, which doesn't compile on X-1 and is buggy on version X (and might not compile again on X+1). For a concrete example, new C++ features that aren't correctly implemented and lead to harder to read code and worse error messages when applied to day-to-day problems (which these features were never meant for).

Re: Software Developers Should Have Sysadmin Experience

#238

Post by eternalban »

lmm wrote: post #219
eternalban wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chemical engineering, Hydroelectrical engineering, Power engineering come immediately to mind as engineering disciplines that deal with active systems that require operational management and control.

Sure, but those are still all very different from software development.

Of course. (In my opinion, /high software/ has more in common with mathematics, music, theatre-film-dance, and architecture than it has with engineering, and /low software/ is begining to resemble boiler room operations.)

But here, as example is my BSEE a.m.: http://eng.rpi.edu/academics

And to this day, we hear about "software engineers" and "software engineering".

Per my OP: "It seems either your conclusion is held to be incorrect, or, we reach the conclusion that software development is not engineering."

Possibly, one reason for the prevalent problems in the pedagogical & human resource fulfillment aspects of the field is due to a miscategorization of the field.

Re: Software Developers Should Have Sysadmin Experience

#239

Post by astrostl »

awinder wrote: post #216
bandrami wrote: post #164

As a grumpy evil sysadmin, I think the good Professor misses where the real disconnect is, at least nowadays: stack management. Why do things like Docker exist? Because developers got tired of sysadmins saying "sorry, you can't upgrade Ruby in the middle of this project". Why does virtualenv exist? A similar reason. Containerized ecosystems (which is to say basically all of them now) are really a sign of those of us…

> 15 years ago, when a project would kick-off, as a sysadmin > I'd be invited in and the developers and I would hash out > what versions of each language and library involved the > project would use To wit: the new ideologies in infrastructure management are actually designed to solve the underlying problem that necessitated that kind of working setup. Why should the version of a lib in one part of the software someh…

> Why should the version of a lib in one part of the software somehow pose existential threat to the infrastructure?

Because that's how software developers wrote every dominant packaging system :P

There are tradeoffs to self-contained units. Disk space isn't so much of a practical concern these days, but security is very real: with a dozen apps, you could be at the mercy of a dozen different entities to update their embedded OpenSSL libraries.

Re: Software Developers Should Have Sysadmin Experience

#240

Post by brianwawok »

jstimpfle wrote: post #211
brianwawok wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's terrible. If I'm a Python dev, why should a sysadmin who doesn't even know Python tell me what version of a library I will use? I have regression tests to catch if an upgrade breaks anyyhing. What does a sysadmin have to approve or deny an upgrade? A little beard stroking and changelog reading? I think the movement towards containers is like you said, to keep sysadmins off the code. Sysadmins add value in sett…

Another perspective: Why don't you want your software to be compatible with the system that your sysadmin provides? (Assuming that system is not completely obsolete). Minimize your dependencies. It's incidentally also what leads to clean code bases.

> Minimize your dependencies. It's incidentally also what leads to clean code bases.

You also crush velocity. Smart use of libraries lets you ship code 10x faster. Two identical businesses.. one writes all their own code, one is smart about using libraries. Which one makes it to IPO first, and which goes bankrupt?

Post reply on HN