Hi, I'm a Sysadmin, and I've been a grumpy one through a larger part of my 15 years experience. My main issue was that Developers were acting like Users: they don't care about what you have to deal with, they want things to 'just work'. In return, I've treated them like children, in some instances yelled at them when they did dumb stuff. I've tried to educate them when possible, and was angry when the education didn'…
Software Developers Should Have Sysadmin Experience
141–150 of 424 posts
Re: Software Developers Should Have Sysadmin Experience
#142This might be controversial, but I don't think you get to be a half decent developer without being a reasonable sysadmin. Maybe my experience is unusual, but I've never worked anywhere that the sysadmins knew more than the developers about how best to run their code in production. And when things go wrong with it how best to find the cause of the issue. And I've never thrown code over a wall without having tested it…
>>> The worst sysadmins get in the way of developers. Ones that scale down your CI server to the cheapest, throttled, one the hosting company has, leaving $800/day contract developers waiting for builds that run in 20 seconds on their laptops take nearly an hour. How likely is that the sysadmins were told to 'just make it run cheaper, I don't care' by someone higher in the foodchain?
Having worked in ops for > 10 years, this is how it usually goes.
The SA's job tends to involve a lot of scepticism and caution. You look for problems and try to solve them proactively. One (often easy) way to solve many classes of problems is to throw hardware at them.
Management always pushes back on this tactic. That's reasonable; they need to justify capital expenses (especially if you're self-hosted).
The core issue though is that capital expenses are easy to quantify, while "lost productivity" is much harder to fully account for. If I complain that some hardware upgrade which costs $x could improve productivity, I just don't have hard numbers on my end - it's all napkin math.
In many places reluctance to spend money on infrastructure is also, I think, a symptom of headcount-itis. Managers love to have more employees, and love to have more for them to do, because that makes managers seem more impressive to the org. My manager might have perverse incentives; keeping the SAs busy fighting scaling fires both makes his team look impressive because they're busier, and makes him look better because the capital expenditures are lower.
Obviously, head count is expensive, so this is usually a game of appearances rather than an effective strategy to improve the bottom line. Good insight into productivity is required to catch this kind of stuff, but in the real world I've found that a lot of places just don't have an org structure capable of weighing cost / benefit properly when it comes to infrastructure.
Re: Software Developers Should Have Sysadmin Experience
#143For that matter, I suspect most sysadmin / ops teams would be happier if developers could only strip "just" out of their vocabulary (and vice versa) - nothing more annoying than "could you JUST do {thing asker doesn't understand and thinks is trivial}"
Re: Software Developers Should Have Sysadmin Experience
#144This might be controversial, but I don't think you get to be a half decent developer without being a reasonable sysadmin. Maybe my experience is unusual, but I've never worked anywhere that the sysadmins knew more than the developers about how best to run their code in production. And when things go wrong with it how best to find the cause of the issue. And I've never thrown code over a wall without having tested it…
It is an interesting exercise to generalize this statement in context of general engineering.
It seems either your conclusion is held to be incorrect, or, we reach the conclusion that software development is not engineering.
Re: Software Developers Should Have Sysadmin Experience
#145This might be controversial, but I don't think you get to be a half decent developer without being a reasonable sysadmin. Maybe my experience is unusual, but I've never worked anywhere that the sysadmins knew more than the developers about how best to run their code in production. And when things go wrong with it how best to find the cause of the issue. And I've never thrown code over a wall without having tested it…
Many devs out there who work with Windows or do mostly front end often have little experience in that domain.
Seeing alot of work get done at uni by students - who also actually some backend (friend did a blockchain project recently) did infact do very little backend discovery - the job was delegated to another student to get the env. Up and running.
Re: Software Developers Should Have Sysadmin Experience
#146Re: Software Developers Should Have Sysadmin Experience
#147That’s interesting.
Re: Software Developers Should Have Sysadmin Experience
#148This might be controversial, but I don't think you get to be a half decent developer without being a reasonable sysadmin. Maybe my experience is unusual, but I've never worked anywhere that the sysadmins knew more than the developers about how best to run their code in production. And when things go wrong with it how best to find the cause of the issue. And I've never thrown code over a wall without having tested it…
> This might be controversial, but I don't think you get to be a half decent developer without being a reasonable sysadmin. It is an interesting exercise to generalize this statement in context of general engineering. It seems either your conclusion is held to be incorrect, or, we reach the conclusion that software development is not engineering.
Re: Software Developers Should Have Sysadmin Experience
#149This might be controversial, but I don't think you get to be a half decent developer without being a reasonable sysadmin. Maybe my experience is unusual, but I've never worked anywhere that the sysadmins knew more than the developers about how best to run their code in production. And when things go wrong with it how best to find the cause of the issue. And I've never thrown code over a wall without having tested it…
Couldn't this argument be applied to any developer for any discipline/speciality?
Sure, more knowledge/context is always better if reasonable to attain, but my experience suggests that your above concerns could also be addressed via team organization rather than expecting all developers to know all things.