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F.B.I. Arrests Volkswagen Executive on Conspiracy Charges in Emissions Scandal

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21–30 of 161 posts

Re: F.B.I. Arrests Volkswagen Executive on Conspiracy Charges in Emissions Scandal

#21
post #13
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have not been closely following this scandal, so I was unaware that other car manufacturers have been indicted in emissions cheating. Could you share a source with more information about this?

Have a look at this talk of the latest CCC at 13:11 https://media.ccc.de/v/33c3-7904-software_defined_emissions He talks about how it is possible that the cars achieve the low results in the testcycles but produce much higher emissions on the real road. The reverse engineering in the beginning of the task is also very interesting.

I was about to post this. VW have been playing dirty tactics even after the scandal.

Re: F.B.I. Arrests Volkswagen Executive on Conspiracy Charges in Emissions Scandal

#22
post #7

Good. I'm tired of high-ranking high-status members of society dodging consequences of multimillion or billion dollar catastrophes while the lowest classes get life sentences for ruining a single life. I think the only way to stop the white-collar crime problem (which I think is a bigger problem than the physical crime problem) is by holding people accountable.

>multimillion or billion dollar catastrophes while the lowest classes get life sentences for ruining a single life. Is the implication here that causing economic harm is the same as murder?

If you think of money as labor and say there are 2000 work hours in a year, then at $10/hour a $1 million waste of money is wasting 500 work-years of human life. 2000 hours/(365 days * 24 hours) = 22%, so that is 500 * 0.22 = 114 lives wasted on a fruitless project.

If a wasteful project is government, then you have the additional complication that the government ultimately uses police and SWAT teams to enforce the tax code. So $20 million / ($50,000 total taxes paid in a year) = 400 man-work-years wasted. Multiplying by the 22% time spent working above gives 90 years, which is close to the lifespan of an average person. So you could say a waste of $20 million is equivalent to wasting a software developer's life(assuming his taxes are $50k).

Murder removes the remaining lifespan from someone, so there is a sense in which it is equivalent to time spent on pointless labor, which is equivalent to money.

Though, you'd want to specify how the Volkswagen incident is a 'multimillion dollar catastrophe':

* Is it from the fines imposed? That's an arbitrary number in the law or from some judge. You can't blame Volkswagen executives for causing economic damage here; the judge or lawmaker seems like the responsible party.

* Is it from environmental damage? It's tricky to get a dollar number from this. You can try, but I'd have low confidence in the result, and chaining that with the low confidence in the 'murderwasted labor' equivalence makes an unpersuasive argument.

* Is it the forced recalls? Here, the Volkswagen executives could be said to be responsible for wasted consumer time driving it to a dealership for repair, wasted employee time fixing the cars, wasted lawyer's time defending their case, wasted judge's time fining them, wasted regulator's time preparing endless reports, etc. But, the economic cost of just the recall is probably smaller than what the OP was thinking.

* Is it damage to the Volkswagen brand? I was recently shopping for a car with a friend, and one criterion was "Anything but a Volkswagen". Even if I don't care about the pollution, cheating makes them untrustworthy. This reduces consumer choice, which has some economic effects.

In what other senses can you say that the Volkswagen executives caused an economic catastrophe(and hence, robbed people of their precious little life cleaning up the mess)?

Re: F.B.I. Arrests Volkswagen Executive on Conspiracy Charges in Emissions Scandal

#23
post #15
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>multimillion or billion dollar catastrophes while the lowest classes get life sentences for ruining a single life. Is the implication here that causing economic harm is the same as murder?

Emissions from Volkswagen cats above those permitted by the Clean Air Act (enabled by cheating on emissions tests) are estimated to have caused a significant number of premature deaths in the US: > According to the study, conducted by researchers at MIT and Harvard University and published in the journal Environmental Research Letters, excess emissions from Volkswagen’s defeat devices will cause around 60 people in t…

In that case it would make more sense to forbid cars entirely except for utility vehicles or electric cars.

Which the government hasn't done for decades, so it is a little hypocritical to make a big thing of the VW scandal.

Re: F.B.I. Arrests Volkswagen Executive on Conspiracy Charges in Emissions Scandal

#24
post #19

Most amazing is that in Europe VW does not have to pay anything. And car owners are forced to do a software update that reduces engine power and increases risk of malfunction. VW never again.

If this blows up it's over for most german car manufacturers.

They sold a lot of diesel cars, and most of them probably have some hacks to meet Euro standards.

They should be forced to fix all cars, reimburse buyers for any losses, and be forced(!) to go green asap (which probably means at least 10 years, so yeah there should be some force)!

Re: F.B.I. Arrests Volkswagen Executive on Conspiracy Charges in Emissions Scandal

#25
post #19

Most amazing is that in Europe VW does not have to pay anything. And car owners are forced to do a software update that reduces engine power and increases risk of malfunction. VW never again.

> Most amazing is that in Europe VW does not have to pay anything.

Yet.

Re: F.B.I. Arrests Volkswagen Executive on Conspiracy Charges in Emissions Scandal

#26
Don't get me wrong. I find it interesting that the FBI will arrest anyone for conspiracy when they so clearly ignore it in numerous other cases (such as in banking, real estate). I doubt though that this will be an emerging pattern for the FBI. I'm sure many more horrible conspiracies against the American people will be ignored efficiently.

Re: F.B.I. Arrests Volkswagen Executive on Conspiracy Charges in Emissions Scandal

#28
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Emissions from Volkswagen cats above those permitted by the Clean Air Act (enabled by cheating on emissions tests) are estimated to have caused a significant number of premature deaths in the US: > According to the study, conducted by researchers at MIT and Harvard University and published in the journal Environmental Research Letters, excess emissions from Volkswagen’s defeat devices will cause around 60 people in t…

In that case it would make more sense to forbid cars entirely except for utility vehicles or electric cars. Which the government hasn't done for decades, so it is a little hypocritical to make a big thing of the VW scandal.

Yes it would.

Unfortunately doing that in today's world would render them unelectable.

Emissions regs are the best our defective system can do, hence slow changes. That even those aren't being honoured makes it a big thing.

Of course many would rather see them start with fraudulent banking than fraudulent car makers.

Re: F.B.I. Arrests Volkswagen Executive on Conspiracy Charges in Emissions Scandal

#29
post #15
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>multimillion or billion dollar catastrophes while the lowest classes get life sentences for ruining a single life. Is the implication here that causing economic harm is the same as murder?

Emissions from Volkswagen cats above those permitted by the Clean Air Act (enabled by cheating on emissions tests) are estimated to have caused a significant number of premature deaths in the US: > According to the study, conducted by researchers at MIT and Harvard University and published in the journal Environmental Research Letters, excess emissions from Volkswagen’s defeat devices will cause around 60 people in t…

while not defending the purposeful fraud on VWs part the cars are still less polluting than the generation they replaced. That number cited by the MIT paper is so low as to be not something that can actually be corrected for.

Great compilation of California pollution regulation that applies https://www.dieselnet.com/standards/us/ld_ca.php#leviii

Re: F.B.I. Arrests Volkswagen Executive on Conspiracy Charges in Emissions Scandal

#30
post #7

Good. I'm tired of high-ranking high-status members of society dodging consequences of multimillion or billion dollar catastrophes while the lowest classes get life sentences for ruining a single life. I think the only way to stop the white-collar crime problem (which I think is a bigger problem than the physical crime problem) is by holding people accountable.

>multimillion or billion dollar catastrophes while the lowest classes get life sentences for ruining a single life. Is the implication here that causing economic harm is the same as murder?

At some point, "causing economic harm" stops being an abstract thing, and literally means children starving, adults going homeless and freezing to death in winter, or people turning into crime to avoid fates like these.

So yeah, billion-dollar white collar crimes are, IMO, definitely worse than murder.

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