Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized tests about my own poems • Hacker News Board

Re: Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized tests about my own poems

#21

Post by JoeAltmaier » Sun, Jan 08, 2017, 3:16 PM UTC

cauterized wrote: post #14

kingkawn wrote: post #8

Why are we testing anyone on poems? The point is to be exposed to the possibilities of inducing emotional transformation through cultural creation and consumption. What is there to test about that other than, "did you feel it? Could you make something yourself that would also feel like something was happening? Do it." There's no proper interpretation, no expert opinion worth anything at all except for the salary the…

I agree that it's ridiculous to ask a student to interpret a poem on a test and expect them to interpret it in any way that resembles the test creator's interpretation. But there are some things about poetry that are not subjective and that are related to the art of writing it and thus worth teaching. In particular, metre/scansion and rhyme/rhyme schemes are crucial aspects of the art that can be identified objective…

That study has a description: squeezing all the life out of poetry, leaving a dry meaningless husk. Its possible to recognize poetry for what it is, without deconstructing it to death. I'd like to take that class.

Re: Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized tests about my own poems

#22

Post by automatwon » Sun, Jan 08, 2017, 3:18 PM UTC

any test that questions the motivations of the author without asking the author is a big baloney sandwich

English 101, Homework Assignment: Write a 8 page literary essay about book-X

I presented my thesis and draft to the the instructor. She told me that I was completely wrong and that this paper would receive an inadequate grade. I admit, like all my other English papers, this one was BS, too. That doesn't inherently mean it's incorrect, though. I went to the library, sifted through a bunch of academic journals (which the instructor believed to be the only legitimate source of truth, unsurprisingly), and found an article with a thesis and supporting evidence that paralleled my argument! I showed the instructor this paper, and just like that she said "oh, okay. The thesis makes sense." I received an A+ on the paper.

Informatics 101 'Social Networks', Pop quiz! "HTML is for the following... (check all that apply)"

Times up! The correct answer is "specifying the LOOK and FEEL of the webpage."

It was 2011, and the professor of this "Social Networks" class, ironically, had been throwing 'Web 2.0' all over his powerpoint slides. I politely consulted him after class, as to not embarrass him that HTML with inline styling is frowned upon, and styling should be specified in CSS stylesheets. It was a matter of principle, rather than pragmatism, that I wasn't penalized for this invalid quiz question. He responded "we can talk about JAVA and the document-object model if you'd like." I immediately dropped the course.

Oh, and he has tenure. (Fortunately in the 'Informatics' department, rather than my own Computer Science department)

My point with these two anecdotes is that in the case of the 'Social Networks' professor I could have, in theory, filed a complaint to university should the professor refuse to acknowledge the invalidity of his grading and material. The English professor asymmetrically held power. My grade is dependent on what she deems a valid interpretation. Sure there's a "rubric", but the same thesis I had went from a D to an A+ in a matter of seconds.

In both cases, I grew my distaste of academia. Despite abhorring my English class, I do appreciate nonsense literature. It satirizes the intellectuals randomly throwing around fancy words like 'Web 2.0', 'Java' and 'document-object-model' in the same sentence, the intellectuals who base validity solely on academic authority, the intellectuals who try to standardize intellect. I leave you with the poem Jabberwocky, by the master Lewis Carroll.

Twas brillig, and the slithy toves

Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:

All mimsy were the borogoves,

And the mome raths outgrabe.

"Beware the Jabberwock, my son!

The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!

Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun

The frumious Bandersnatch!"

Re: Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized tests about my own poems

#23

Post by Pitarou » Sun, Jan 08, 2017, 3:19 PM UTC

jasode wrote: post #19

mhurron wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If she had known the answer, would that make the question any better? If anyone can answer what the 'correct' interpretation of a piece of writing is, it's the author. If they can not, well maybe the authors intent wasn't what the questions are asking. Of course this is a fundamental problem in the way we teach and test literature. No piece of work has a single meaning because meaning is found in the merging of the…

>If anyone can answer what the 'correct' interpretation of a piece of writing is, it's the author. To echo the other comments questioning that premise, there's also the famous Isaac Asimov anecdote: Isaac Asimov often repeated an anecdote based on this: He once sat in on a class where the topic of discussion was one of his own works. (He did this in the back of a large lecture hall so he could remain semi-anonymous).…

Asimov being Asimov, he then went on to write a story about Shakespeare being summoned from the past to take a college course on his plays. He failed, of course.

Re: Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized tests about my own poems

#24

Post by SamBam » Sun, Jan 08, 2017, 3:31 PM UTC

mhurron wrote: post #13

cderwin wrote: post #6

If she had known the answer, would that make the question any better? I remember back when I was in high school, I always sort of assumed that the authors of the poems we were tested on wouldn't be able to answer the ridiculous questions on our assessments. But even if they did, I've never been able to figure out what skills these questions were testing. If poems are open to interpretation, isn't it reasonable to thi…

> If she had known the answer, would that make the question any better? If anyone can answer what the 'correct' interpretation of a piece of writing is, it's the author. If they can not, well maybe the authors intent wasn't what the questions are asking. Of course this is a fundamental problem in the way we teach and test literature. No piece of work has a single meaning because meaning is found in the merging of the…

> If anyone can answer what the 'correct' interpretation of a piece of writing is, it's the author.

Well, that's very much up for debate. The Intentional Fallacy claims that authorial intent is not a valid part of artistic criticism or interpretation. That all you can judge a work on is the internal text and surrounding body of context, not notions of what was going on in the artist's head.

The idea is debated, to be sure.

Re: Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized tests about my own poems

#25

Post by gmac » Sun, Jan 08, 2017, 3:32 PM UTC

cderwin wrote: post #6

If she had known the answer, would that make the question any better? I remember back when I was in high school, I always sort of assumed that the authors of the poems we were tested on wouldn't be able to answer the ridiculous questions on our assessments. But even if they did, I've never been able to figure out what skills these questions were testing. If poems are open to interpretation, isn't it reasonable to thi…

it is worse abroad

"Abroad"?

I'm pretty sure you'll find countries that are not the US that do it much better. I'm willing to countenance that there are countries that are not the US that do it worse.

Re: Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized tests about my own poems

#26

Post by SixSigma » Sun, Jan 08, 2017, 3:32 PM UTC

ansible wrote: post #7

oddlyaromatic wrote: post #4

I thought a lot of what we learned about poems in school was overly prescriptive, and my friends and I could often invent and justify other meanings. But, unlike with multiple choice, in assignments and exams we were supposed to do exactly that. Exploring what something "might mean" is one of the ways to get into a poem. I mean, I still thought that how we studied poetry was not a very good way. But now I see it coul…

Indeed. I don't know why that sort of thing is on a standardized test anyway. We are having enough problems ensuring that all students have basic functional literacy. If they can read a paragraph from a credit card application and understand it, that will go a long way towards increasing their overall successful functioning in society. Let them do poetry interpretation on their own time and according to their own int…

In the UK schools are rated in League Tables so parents can choose where to send children.

This incentivices teaching to the test rather than teaching a rounded education and then testing the functional aspects.

So in order to ensure pupils are exposed to culture, you must put it on the test to make sure it gets covered.

I imagine the US uses a similarly shitty system of school funding allocation.

It raises the question "what is school for?"

Re: Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized tests about my own poems

#27

Post by al2o3cr » Sun, Jan 08, 2017, 3:33 PM UTC

automatwon wrote: post #22

any test that questions the motivations of the author without asking the author is a big baloney sandwich English 101, Homework Assignment: Write a 8 page literary essay about book-X I presented my thesis and draft to the the instructor. She told me that I was completely wrong and that this paper would receive an inadequate grade. I admit, like all my other English papers, this one was BS, too. That doesn't inherentl…

" I went to the library, sifted through a bunch of academic journals (which the instructor believed to be the only legitimate source of truth, unsurprisingly), and found an article with a thesis and supporting evidence that paralleled my argument! I showed the instructor this paper, and just like that she said "oh, okay. The thesis makes sense.""

Congratulations, you just learned the difference between making unsubstantiated assertions and producing research.

Re: Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized tests about my own poems

#28

Post by SixSigma » Sun, Jan 08, 2017, 3:33 PM UTC

kingkawn wrote: post #8

Why are we testing anyone on poems? The point is to be exposed to the possibilities of inducing emotional transformation through cultural creation and consumption. What is there to test about that other than, "did you feel it? Could you make something yourself that would also feel like something was happening? Do it." There's no proper interpretation, no expert opinion worth anything at all except for the salary the…

> Why are we testing anyone on poems?

If they aren't on the test, chances are they will fall out of the classroom.

Re: Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized tests about my own poems

#29

Post by kingkawn » Sun, Jan 08, 2017, 3:36 PM UTC

cauterized wrote: post #14

kingkawn wrote: post #8

Why are we testing anyone on poems? The point is to be exposed to the possibilities of inducing emotional transformation through cultural creation and consumption. What is there to test about that other than, "did you feel it? Could you make something yourself that would also feel like something was happening? Do it." There's no proper interpretation, no expert opinion worth anything at all except for the salary the…

I agree that it's ridiculous to ask a student to interpret a poem on a test and expect them to interpret it in any way that resembles the test creator's interpretation. But there are some things about poetry that are not subjective and that are related to the art of writing it and thus worth teaching. In particular, metre/scansion and rhyme/rhyme schemes are crucial aspects of the art that can be identified objective…

You can teach and test recognition of all of those components, I agree, but none of it has anything to do with whether or not the poem is achieving anything.

I am not saying that there is no context within which analysis has meaning, but that sort of component analysis I think is a misapplication of a certain kind of thinking to a medium that does not benefit at all from it.

If we knew the components of good poems we could actually produce them with some consistency. We can't. So to teach it that way is only to turn poetry into a cypher for a different activity altogether.

I guess thats fine, those skills may be needed for other areas of life and are worth developing, but it doesn't seem like learning about the function or creation of art, so in turn seems like a takeover of the field for the sake of something else entirely. I dunno, maybe its all good, but it seems like something potentially valuable and encouraging is being sacrificed for the sake of analysis.

Re: Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized tests about my own poems

#30

Post by kingkawn » Sun, Jan 08, 2017, 3:38 PM UTC

SixSigma wrote: post #28

kingkawn wrote: post #8

Why are we testing anyone on poems? The point is to be exposed to the possibilities of inducing emotional transformation through cultural creation and consumption. What is there to test about that other than, "did you feel it? Could you make something yourself that would also feel like something was happening? Do it." There's no proper interpretation, no expert opinion worth anything at all except for the salary the…

> Why are we testing anyone on poems? If they aren't on the test, chances are they will fall out of the classroom.

If they are on the test in that way chance is that they are not present in the classroom at all despite their apparent use there.