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Ask HN: Are there better countries to start my SaaS company for tax reasons?

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Re: Ask HN: Are there better countries to start my SaaS company for tax reasons?

#41

Doesn't Ireland have a 6.5 % tax rate? Isn't that why all the companies like to incorporate there? http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/10/15/ireland-r...

Sure, but the Isle of Man has a 0% one, and almost all the advantages if you don't need an onsite workforce.

Re: Ask HN: Are there better countries to start my SaaS company for tax reasons?

#42
Wanted to lob more to the comments here on keeping it simple (and in the US):

You'll find that most US companies want to deal with US companies. This isn't just preference, but is part practicality. Contracts "Governed by the laws of Panama" isn't going to fly. I've even seen companies argue over the US state specified. This can be true elsewhere, but most places are more used to dealing with US-based companies and contracts than another random country.

Related: As a foreign company you might find you're subject to provisions and laws you weren't aware. Could be privacy or even simple reporting. Knowing your own country's business requirements is hard enough, knowing another could compound that.

It's going to be a similar story if you intend taking investment. To some investors it won't matter. To many it will matter a lot. Either way, a US (esp. Delaware) company is simple for both -- and you'll probably find the investment legals are significantly cheaper.

Eventually you'll want to employ people too. Granted there are ways of doing this without a US entity, but it's not going to be pretty.

Re: Ask HN: Are there better countries to start my SaaS company for tax reasons?

#43
If you're business never takes off, it won't matter where you are incorporated. Get some decent advice for a professional you trust. When you start making mad stacks of cash, let the profits from your business pay for the super duper advice on a tax strategy that makes the most sense for your business.

About 10 years ago I decided to become a one person tax expert, read a NOLO press book on incorporating, and found what I thought was a clever solution to optimizing taxes in the most favorable manner. About a year later, my accountant told me two things... 1. "I've never actually seen a client choose this tax structure" 2. "You picked the worst possible taxation vehicle for your business, which is hard to do on purpose!"

Re: Ask HN: Are there better countries to start my SaaS company for tax reasons?

#44
post #40

Consider yourself lucky and incorporate in the US. Do not, under any circumstances, even think about running a SaaS business from Europe. EU has made invoicing hell for small businesses, especially those selling SaaS. You will spend time on things like VAT number checking, verifying customer's country using their IP (yes, I know), several kinds of invoices, prices inclusive or exclusive of VAT, calculating VAT for ea…

Please can you provide a link on these constraints in EU? Thanks

Re: Ask HN: Are there better countries to start my SaaS company for tax reasons?

#45
As a European, I would choose the US any time. More friendly biz environment, many consultants there knowledgeable and no one, even the Europeans, ask why you are there and bill from there In case you have some really simple mass-market product, you could also consider the Dubai Internet Free-Zone where you have ZERO percent taxes, only about 3000 Dollar fees in the beginning (and some cost for license renewal every year). In case Europe is a must, Cyprus might be a low-cost option.

Re: Ask HN: Are there better countries to start my SaaS company for tax reasons?

#46
post #8

Note, I am not an accountant, but these are my experiences running a business in the U.S. If you are a passthrough entity like a sole-propietorship, partnership, or S-corp, probably not. Note, this doesn't matter if you're an LLC or not because the IRS doesn't care. Basically, passthrough entities calculate all business income minus deductible expenses as personal income. Therefore, the amount is subject to federal a…

> This mostly puts you in the 25% tax bracket. We'll assume that there's also 5% of state income tax. For FICA, since you're both the employee and the employer, you pay 15.3%. All together, that means you're losing about 45% to tax off the bat. Because tax brackets are progressive, it really does not make any sense to add the percentages up like that. No one making $100k/year is paying $45k/year in taxes. > Your firs…

Was going to post this. Only qualified dividends are taxed at the lower capital gains rate, normal dividends/distributions of profits are taxed at ordinary rate...

Re: Ask HN: Are there better countries to start my SaaS company for tax reasons?

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if the team is made of digital nomads working remotely from different areas?

Good question. I'm not a lawyer; I assume edge cases will be decided by the relevant tax authorities. Speculating here, but if there's a single place where management decisions are made, say where the CEO lives, the corporation might be tax resident there. Otherwise, they might decide to tax you in place of incorporation. For such a company, what address would it have? Maybe where you place its headquarters has some…

IANAL, but my understanding is that common law jurisdictions generally consider a corporation to be resident wherever "management and control" is exercised; corporations which are at risk of being considered resident in a jurisdiction where they do not want to be considered resident normally ample evidence of the locations of their board meetings and the physical presence of board members in order to prove that control is not being exercised within the avoided jurisdiction.

Re: Ask HN: Are there better countries to start my SaaS company for tax reasons?

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This mostly puts you in the 25% tax bracket. We'll assume that there's also 5% of state income tax. For FICA, since you're both the employee and the employer, you pay 15.3%. All together, that means you're losing about 45% to tax off the bat. Because tax brackets are progressive, it really does not make any sense to add the percentages up like that. No one making $100k/year is paying $45k/year in taxes. > Your firs…

Was going to post this. Only qualified dividends are taxed at the lower capital gains rate, normal dividends/distributions of profits are taxed at ordinary rate...

Just checked. I think both of you are right on the distributions. My mistake.

Let me see if I can push out better numbers. From here:

http://taxfoundation.org/article/2017-tax-brackets

https://www.tax-brackets.org/newmexicotaxtable

$100k income generates $20981.75 federal income tax. FICA is paid on the full amount, so $15300. In my state, the top income tax rate is 4.9%, but with graduation, $4620.50. All together, that's $40902.25, or about 41%. That's not that far off the 45% estimate from above, but it is lower. I still contend that taxes on small businesses are still absurdly high.

Re: Ask HN: Are there better countries to start my SaaS company for tax reasons?

#49

You've had all the benefits of the country you're in: roads, schools, research universities that created the software industry, a foreign service that advocated for your right to sell globally. It's time to return part of the favour. (Also what everyone else said: it's premature optimisation)

Question: "Comcast sucks and is overpriced, are there any other internet providers that give me a better deal?"

Answer: "You've had all the benefits of the internet, which you've already overpaid [1] for. Rather than switching to a better internet provider, it's time to return part of the favor."

Spot the flaw in your comment yet? It's a generic non-response that applies to every possible service and ignores the fact that the service has already been paid for.

[1] Most government spending - which he has already financed with his taxes - is merely wealth transfers to non-workers. Only a small fraction consists of the services you mention.

Re: Ask HN: Are there better countries to start my SaaS company for tax reasons?

#50
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was going to post this. Only qualified dividends are taxed at the lower capital gains rate, normal dividends/distributions of profits are taxed at ordinary rate...

Just checked. I think both of you are right on the distributions. My mistake. Let me see if I can push out better numbers. From here: http://taxfoundation.org/article/2017-tax-brackets https://www.tax-brackets.org/newmexicotaxtable $100k income generates $20981.75 federal income tax. FICA is paid on the full amount, so $15300. In my state, the top income tax rate is 4.9%, but with graduation, $4620.50. All together,…

If you're going to run numbers you might as well use a calculator that at least accounts for the standard deduction, personal exemption, and deducts 1/2 of the SE tax:

    Income: $100,000
    Self-employment tax on $100,000: $14,130
    Taxable income: $100,000 - $6,300 (standard deduction) - $4,050 (personal exemption) - $7,065 (1/2 SE tax) = $82,585
    Federal income tax on $82,585 = $16,418
    Total federal income tax and self-employment tax: $30,548
That's about 30%. Add in $4-5k for state income tax and you're up to 35% effective tax rate at most. And this is assuming a single filer with no dependents and no other deductions. Add a spouse or dependents, or IRA/401k contributions, or business deductions, and it goes even lower.
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