Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yup. Science has become somewhat like a religion for those who like to think logically. In the end, they can no more step out of their logical thinking than the zealots can step out of their faith based thinking. Both become dogmatic and a crutch...
This is wrong, very wrong. There is a big fundamental difference between science and religion: Scientist can invent new theories and change their mind when new evidence is discovered. Religious people stick to their beliefs no matter what.
What If Time Really Exists? (2008)
81–90 of 215 posts
Re: What If Time Really Exists? (2008)
#82Seems like a lot of the problem with "time" is semantic. Do things change? Yes, and if that's the definition then it certainly exists. But people don't generally see time like that, they think of it as some medium, or 4th dimension, that can possibly be traveled through. This kind of time does not exist (as much as anything can't exist). There are only particles and their positions. Traveling back in time would requi…
Re: What If Time Really Exists? (2008)
#83Re: What If Time Really Exists? (2008)
#84+ A discrete, infinite Hilbert space, with (wave) functions defined at each point. Why discrete?
+ An operator across this Hilbert space that describes the evoltion of the universe.
+ A non-recurring property of the overall system that depends on the infinity of the system.
- Question. If the system is really big, can we see if it is recurrent or not?
- Question. Deviations from equilibrium should be "minor". However, minor deviations on a very fundamental level (of quantumgravity) might perhaps result in genesis/destruction of complete universes. If there is some kind of process that goes to low entropy can it be self-inforcing till it big bangs?
- Question. If time is a parameter for the universe's walk in Hilbert space, why is it real?
Re: What If Time Really Exists? (2008)
#85e.g. we don't even know if the physics we have is universal or local to our observable corner, the only evidence we have is we haven't seen any evidence to disprove it, but that's not proof.
String theory could be considered dogma. But it at least provides means to test its predictions, its just that we are very very far off from ever getting close to that capability.
If we live in an illusion, its entirely possible and in fact likely that it is beyond our ability to even detect that. In fact that would be one of the first requirements of such a 'program'. You can should 'computer, end program!' all you like but the holodeck will just ignore you :)
There really is no point to wondering about the reality of time if it doesn't lead to anything we can test/influence or use to advance our understanding and so far there is none.
You could just say the entire universe is but one of infinite multiverses which are being continuously spawned in the cosmic sea, but that doesn't change anything.
Re: What If Time Really Exists? (2008)
#86Between modern physics suggesting time and space may be illusions, leading technologists agreeing that we're almost certainly in a simulated reality, and many ancient traditions being certain that this is all an illusion, I may have to have to go ahead and take this seriously....
There is no serious evidence for the simulation theory. It is more of a religious belief than a scientific theory since it poses more problems than it answers (who is running the simulation? How did they come to exist? What is their reality like? Etc.)
So in the event that someone holds a firm an unwavering belief that we're in a simulation unrelated to availability of facts, then their belief would be akin to a religious belief, sure, but the intent of the simulation argument is not to claim that there is evidence we live in a simulation.
Specifically, it does not argue that we live in a simulation at all.
It presents the hypothesis that at least one of the three given propositions must be true (paraphrased):
1. Either very few human-level civilizations reach a stage where they can run ancestor simulations, OR
2. Very few such civilizations have any interest in running such simulations, OR
3. Most people live in a simulation.
Basically it boils down to an argument that if many civilizations reach a stage where they can and do run such simulations, then our odds of living in simulation by pure chance will be high.
But the argument says nothing about whether or not we live in a simulation in isolation, because the argument does not quantify the odds of 1 or 2, and even if it happens that the chances of living in a simulation are astronomically high chance, that is still not evidence that we are, it would just be an indication that we probably are.
But let's say it turns out we have something akin to a "soul" that can't be simulated. In that case the number of civilizations in #1 is 0, and we're not in a sinulation under any circumstances. Or the odds of hitting a Great Filter and die out before we reach the technological level necessary might simply be insanely high, in which case the number in #1 might very well be very close to 0.
It may also be that any civilization that reach such a stage first will hit a singularity or other event that changes its priorities such that nobody are interested in such a simulation, or can justify the effort or expense. In which case the number of civilizations interested in running such simulations even if possible may be close to 0 (these options may also affect #1 - it may be we opt to change our future in ways that sends us off in a different technological direction).
The point of the argument is exactly the questions it raises, first and foremost by making people think about the possibility, and secondly to make people think about what may prevent us from being able to (which is tangentially related to the Fermi paradox), and what might make us want to or not want to, and lastly the questions it raises about whether there are ways for us to quantify or investigate each of the propositions. E.g. if #3 holds, are there any ways we can determine if we are in a simulation or not?
It is a philosophical argument, put forth to present the possibility that we live in a simulation that similar to e.g. the Drake equation seeks to define a set of parameters to focus a discussion around. It is not the intent that we should just assert the 3rd proposition is true, as even if it is true, it does not resolve all the questions around the 1st and 2nd, and it would just raise new question (the hypothesis can apply recursively - if it is possible to run such a simulation, then if it is posible to also run such a simulation within a simulation, then how that does affect the propabilities? it might seem as it creates a rather large subset of possible solutions that would make the probability of being in an infinitely nested simulation approach infinity; is there something that would prevent that?)
So it's not a bad scientific theory - it's a good philosophical hypothesis. It might in the future give rise to scientific theories. E.g. attempts to define falsifiable bounds to the probabilities, or falsifiable predictions about properties the world must have if we are in a simulation or not in one. But for the moment, it is a philosophical argument, and attacking it for not being a scientific theory is aiming in the wrong direction.
Re: What If Time Really Exists? (2008)
#87Earlier quoted context omitted.
Exactly; it's the measurement of change. As long as things are changing, time exists. (The fact that this discussion is taking place proves it's existence!)
> As long as things are changing, time exists. Except at the speed of light.
Re: What If Time Really Exists? (2008)
#88Science is by definition incomplete. It only provides a means for proposing theories to test observed phenomenon, test them, and use them to extrapolate and make future predictions, which can invalidate or strengthen the theory. e.g. we don't even know if the physics we have is universal or local to our observable corner, the only evidence we have is we haven't seen any evidence to disprove it, but that's not proof.…
I think this is wrong. There are some (possibly many) such apparently pointless questions that eventually lead to actual experiments. I remember that Einstein's book's about relativity theory starts with such questions. Off the top of my head, questions such as "how could you prove that two events in different places have happened at the same time."
I'd also argue that the whole concept of science came from the Philosophers from ancient Greece trying to answer such unanswerable questions. But this may require a longer dissertation :).
Re: What If Time Really Exists? (2008)
#89Earlier quoted context omitted.
The appearance that quantum effects might be attributed to 'hacks' probably has more to do with the hackish nature of the Copenhagen interpretation. For instance, there is no stated physical explanation for the collapse of a wavefunction--it is only an extremely convenient way of explaining many experiments. A crude analogy--you can describe the flipping of coins with simple probability, but this is a non-physical ye…
What do you think of Bohm's interpretation ?
Re: What If Time Really Exists? (2008)
#90Between modern physics suggesting time and space may be illusions, leading technologists agreeing that we're almost certainly in a simulated reality, and many ancient traditions being certain that this is all an illusion, I may have to have to go ahead and take this seriously....
>leading technologists agreeing that we're almost certainly in a simulated reality Just to elaborate, this is really easy to show. Just take two pieces of paper, and scribble all over one of them for 10-15 minutes. Then crumple them up and throw them to the ground. The blank one will fall to the ground smoothly. But the one that has a lot of image information will tax the Universe's GPU, because it isn't able to comp…
Very few are arguing that we're almost certainly in one. Philosphers like Nicholas Bostrom are arguing that either something will prevent most simulations from reaching a stage where we can or will simulate the past, or we most likely live in a simulation, but you'll note it's very possible that the answer is that we can't or won't too.
The problem is that we don't have the faintest clue what the probabilities of each of the propositions are.