Vivaldi – A Browser for Our Friends • Hacker News Board

Re: Vivaldi – A Browser for Our Friends

#171

Post by zeveb » Fri, Jan 06, 2017, 4:33 PM UTC

StevePerkins wrote: post #156

Tomis02 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All disagreements aside, I would really like understand why you feel "open in new tab" should not focus the new tab (apart from habit). In my experience Chrome users click "open in new tab" and then click the newly opened tab anyway, which is one extra mouse click and more mouse movement than in Vivaldi/Opera12 where you only have to click 'open in new tab' (fewer clicks and less mouse movement overall, it's obviousl…

If I want to shift focus to a different page immediately, then I simply click the link. Then use the "back" button when I want to return. If I'm right-clicking to open in a new tab, then it's usually because I want to open multiple links on a page while scrolling through it. So I want those loaded up in the background, and I want to remain on the original page until I've finished reading the material there. Yes, you…

> Yes, you CAN do these things in Vivaldi... by using three-finger keyboard shortcuts, scrolling further down in a context menu, or using a wonky middle mouse button that most non-Solaris users never use.

Ummm, the middle mouse button is the way to open links in a background tab (the right button is for opening up a context menu, with links as with anything else on the computer). AFAIK, every modern mouse comes with a middle mouse button, disguised as the scroll wheel.

What perplexes me is why anyone would want anything else.

Re: Vivaldi – A Browser for Our Friends

#172

Post by StevePerkins » Fri, Jan 06, 2017, 4:42 PM UTC

bigbugbag wrote: post #146

StevePerkins wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope. Like I said, I use Opera: * It still has a more impressive array of power user features than Chrome or Firefoxv * It's sync service is more reliable than the other two. * It works with Chrome extensions, and has no compatibility issues with websites (unless a site is stupid enough to check with User-Agent headers, and those can be spoofed with an extension in the worst-case). * Last but not least, Opera has the…

From what you say, it seems to me you don't use opera, but the chrome skin they decided to keep the name of the actual browser for marketing reasons. I use opera since version 8.5 and I had to pin the v12.16 package to keep using it, which I still do today because there is no alternative to the features it had. And I have no idea what you are talking about, the whole opera supporters who supported it through the year…

Hey man, Opera has a tremendous legacy of innovation in the WWW, and I'm honestly glad that some entity is carrying on the old Opera spirit for you guys. You're a tiny community, but a passionate one.

I'm just saying that it's not realistic to expect Vivaldi to significantly influence the industry today, the way that old Opera did 15 years ago. If you desire serious adoption, then you're making choices that set you up for a battle you're not going to win.

If you don't care whether Vivaldi gets any traction at all, and are just glad that someone's keeping Opera 12.x going, then that's cool too. But I dunno... if Opera 12.x wasn't a viable business model, then how is Vivaldi going to financially sustain itself over the long term either?

Re: Vivaldi – A Browser for Our Friends

#173

Post by Tomis02 » Fri, Jan 06, 2017, 4:49 PM UTC

StevePerkins wrote: post #156

Tomis02 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All disagreements aside, I would really like understand why you feel "open in new tab" should not focus the new tab (apart from habit). In my experience Chrome users click "open in new tab" and then click the newly opened tab anyway, which is one extra mouse click and more mouse movement than in Vivaldi/Opera12 where you only have to click 'open in new tab' (fewer clicks and less mouse movement overall, it's obviousl…

If I want to shift focus to a different page immediately, then I simply click the link. Then use the "back" button when I want to return. If I'm right-clicking to open in a new tab, then it's usually because I want to open multiple links on a page while scrolling through it. So I want those loaded up in the background, and I want to remain on the original page until I've finished reading the material there. Yes, you…

> If I want to shift focus to a different page immediately, then I simply click the link. Then use the "back" button when I want to return.

There are lots of cases where you want to keep your original tab and the new tab, e.g. reading an article which contains references to other articles, going through a list of tickets in a bug tracker (the list pattern can be applied to anything - games, amazon items, whatever). I also keep the original tab because I might not be finished reading it or because I want to use it for a later reference, and opening a new page in the same tab might make me forget that I was reading another page to begin with.

> It has some UX quirks that are out of step with the other major browsers, and it's baffled that anyone might want to customize that.

I'm not against customization, just saying that for most people the Vivaldi/Opera way might make more sense. I can see why you in particular would dislike this work flow, and it makes sense there should be a checkbox allowing you to maintain your way of using the browser.

> It's an indication that the real goal is creating the perfect successor for Opera 12 die-hards.

I think it actually might be their official goal, as the browsers on the market don't offer what Opera 12 used to. And it's probably the right thing to do as a business too, since it's unlikely anyone would pay attention to a Chrome/Firefox clone.

> but I don't think it's going to lead to any serious traction beyond them.

It won't, but that has nothing to do with the product's intrinsic quality. Unless Vivaldi's marketing budget matches Google's I don't see their market share getting into double digits. But you know what? That's ok. Opera 12 used to do relatively fine with 3-4%.

Re: Vivaldi – A Browser for Our Friends

#174

Post by Tomis02 » Fri, Jan 06, 2017, 4:57 PM UTC

tornadoboy55 wrote: post #53

StevePerkins wrote: post #46

I check in on Vivaldi every few months to see how it's coming along, and there are some things that I like. However, I think they're a bit TOO fixated on Opera as it was 15 years ago. I keep waiting for bookmark sync, which today is a fundamental browser feature rather than a nice-to-have. But the Vivaldi guys insist on pouring resources into an integrated desktop email client instead, because that was a signature fe…

> However, it's probably no exaggeration to say that most users haven't used a desktop email client in over a decade. Almost everyone that uses macOS uses Apple Mail. Actually, I prefer that from having to (keep ) open a tab for Gmail.

In my corporation people usually use Outlook.

Re: Vivaldi – A Browser for Our Friends

#175

Post by Tomis02 » Fri, Jan 06, 2017, 5:02 PM UTC

StevePerkins wrote: post #156

Tomis02 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All disagreements aside, I would really like understand why you feel "open in new tab" should not focus the new tab (apart from habit). In my experience Chrome users click "open in new tab" and then click the newly opened tab anyway, which is one extra mouse click and more mouse movement than in Vivaldi/Opera12 where you only have to click 'open in new tab' (fewer clicks and less mouse movement overall, it's obviousl…

If I want to shift focus to a different page immediately, then I simply click the link. Then use the "back" button when I want to return. If I'm right-clicking to open in a new tab, then it's usually because I want to open multiple links on a page while scrolling through it. So I want those loaded up in the background, and I want to remain on the original page until I've finished reading the material there. Yes, you…

Sorry, this turned into a typical 90s flame war. I think you have a valid point that Vivaldi should provide options despite what you and I might think are the correct defaults.

Re: Vivaldi – A Browser for Our Friends

#176

Post by woah » Fri, Jan 06, 2017, 5:10 PM UTC

bigbugbag wrote: post #142

StevePerkins wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, you CAN get to the common behavior by clicking an item further down on the context menu... or by pressing some unholy keyboard combination. But to be frank, it's clunky and I'm simply not going to bother so long as Opera is being actively developed. If Opera did stop, or turned into Chinese malware or something, then I would probably just jump over to Firefox and use plugins for the most Opera-like experience…

I wonder what you are talking about, Opera did stop and turned into a Chrome clone which brought vivaldi and otter into existence to close the gap it left. I don't get Where the extra click you are talking about is, either click on open in new tab or open in background tab, same number of click. I'm not sure what kind of customization you are asking for, you want to remove the choice of opening in background tab ? Wh…

As an aside, what is a "power user" of a web browser? Almost everyone these days in any kind of office job makes very heavy use of the web for research and apps. People proclaiming themselves as "power users" are just trying to imagine that they have some sort of weird superiority because of their idiosyncratic UI preferences. What a strange thing to be proud of.

Re: Vivaldi – A Browser for Our Friends

#177

Post by Al-Khwarizmi » Fri, Jan 06, 2017, 5:23 PM UTC

StevePerkins wrote: post #129

Tomis02 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Man, I really miss the skins in Opera 12, there were some gorgeous ones. I agree that the email client is not necessarily a priority, however > Every other major browser opens the link in a background tab, keeping the focus in the tab you're currently on. Oh wow, that's pretty bad for every other major browser. We have two use cases: 1) I want to open the link in a new tab and switch focus (presumably to read right n…

Indeed, you CAN get to the common behavior by clicking an item further down on the context menu... or by pressing some unholy keyboard combination. But to be frank, it's clunky and I'm simply not going to bother so long as Opera is being actively developed. If Opera did stop, or turned into Chinese malware or something, then I would probably just jump over to Firefox and use plugins for the most Opera-like experience…

This reaction IS what I was talking about, and does seem at odds with Vivaldi's branding and marketing. The website slogans include, "It's your web. Surf it the way you want!", " A million ways to customize everything!", etc. But suggest letting users customize Vivaldi so that common new tab behavior is the default, and ancient Opera behavior is the one requiring extra clicks... and suddenly customization is bad, and the way people want to surf the web is objectively wrong.

I don't think the Vivaldi team has said anything against letting you customize that option. Probably that customization is just not implemented yet.

Re: Vivaldi – A Browser for Our Friends

#178

Post by bwat48 » Fri, Jan 06, 2017, 5:30 PM UTC

StevePerkins wrote: post #156

Tomis02 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All disagreements aside, I would really like understand why you feel "open in new tab" should not focus the new tab (apart from habit). In my experience Chrome users click "open in new tab" and then click the newly opened tab anyway, which is one extra mouse click and more mouse movement than in Vivaldi/Opera12 where you only have to click 'open in new tab' (fewer clicks and less mouse movement overall, it's obviousl…

If I want to shift focus to a different page immediately, then I simply click the link. Then use the "back" button when I want to return. If I'm right-clicking to open in a new tab, then it's usually because I want to open multiple links on a page while scrolling through it. So I want those loaded up in the background, and I want to remain on the original page until I've finished reading the material there. Yes, you…

> or using a wonky middle mouse button that most non-Solaris users never use

.... What?

I've always used windows, OSX and occasionally linux (have never used solaris) and I've always found middle click to open links in the background to be incredibly convenient, and I highly doubt that it's as rarely used as you're implying (especially considering that every single browser I can think of implements that behavior, I doubt they would bother if no one used it).

Middle clicking to close tabs is also incredibly convenient.

Re: Vivaldi – A Browser for Our Friends

#179

Post by bwat48 » Fri, Jan 06, 2017, 5:34 PM UTC

rootlocus wrote: post #158

StevePerkins wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I want to shift focus to a different page immediately, then I simply click the link. Then use the "back" button when I want to return. If I'm right-clicking to open in a new tab, then it's usually because I want to open multiple links on a page while scrolling through it. So I want those loaded up in the background, and I want to remain on the original page until I've finished reading the material there. Yes, you…

> a wonky middle mouse button that most non-Solaris users never use. I've read through your other comments in this thread, and while most of them contain some form of generalization or another, to me this is the most baffling.

As I read his replies, I was immediately thinking "why not just use middle click"?

Then I saw that line and was just confused. Maybe he has a mouse with a really terrible scroll wheel and has assumed that all scroll wheels are terrible and that no one ever middle clicks?

Re: Vivaldi – A Browser for Our Friends

#180

Post by morganvachon » Fri, Jan 06, 2017, 5:42 PM UTC

StevePerkins wrote: post #168

morganvachon wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't get Where the extra click you are talking about is, either click on open in new tab or open in background tab, same number of click. Vivaldi: right click -> "Open in new tab" = two clicks Chrome: right click -> "Open in new tab" -> click the newly opened tab = three clicks

If you're only opening a single link, then sure. But if you're only opening a single link, then why use a new tab to begin with? Just click the link ( "one click!" ), and go back to the previous page if and when you want. If I'm opening links in new tabs, its generally because I'm reading a page, and queuing up things to read after I finish that initial page. Some of the old-Opera diehards in this thread are acting l…

Are you sure you replied to the right comment? I was correcting a misconception that three clicks equals two clicks, not stating an opinion about the issue. It takes me 30 seconds at most to readjust to a different browser's context menu, and I don't complain about it. I'm certainly not an "old-Opera diehard" as you suggested; I haven't used that browser in over a decade and the only thing I ever liked about it was the email integration, as I stated in another comment.