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The Reality of Developer Burnout

kennethreitz.org

41–50 of 191 posts

Re: The Reality of Developer Burnout

#41
post #39

> Burnout is, unfortunately, a very real phenomena in software development These people sound like they are bomb technicians not software developers... > "I'd rather do anything else than this right now" — even though writing software is one of your favorite activities in the world. So? Does this mean you have burnt out? How does this compare to jobs like algorithmic trading or mission critical software? Burning out…

You are calling bullshit based some vague feelings of "job difficulty"?

Do you have a robust mental model of the day to day experiences of these people who you are calling bullshit on? If not, I would be careful with your words. It can come off as fairly snide, ignorant, and callous.

Re: The Reality of Developer Burnout

#42
post #23
post #11

This is not developer burnout. This is Twitter burnout. "So, I unfollowed everyone on Twitter" he writes, which apparently fixed his problem. That has nothing to do with development.

On the contrary; in this case, Twitter is a symptom. Instead, the problem is bubble-based news. The platform could've been something else, like Facebook, or RSS.

Platform has nothing to do with it. If you keep reading unrealistic marketing stories and believe what they say... well you are the problem...

A lot of people read the same things, should we all burn out?

Re: The Reality of Developer Burnout

#43
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's different in software, people can't do their jobs when this happens. Otherwise it shouldn't be called a burnout.

You can say this about any field. A ditch digger loses "intrinsic motivation" and chooses to not dig a ditch. The ditch digger can't do their job because of burnout. But somehow it is different in software development?

I'd argue that yes, it is different in software development.

The nature of ditch digging is such that given enough effort, it's probably still possible to dig a ditch. It doesn't mean you'll be motivated to dig the ditch, it doesn't mean it won't be ridiculously hard to dig the ditch, but barring seriously physical issues preventing you from making progress, digging a ditch is mechanical and doesn't really involve a serious need for critical thinking.

When you burn out as a software dev (and probably other fields that involve serious mental investment), it doesn't matter how much you try, there's a good chance you'll just fail.

I do agree that software development is not the only field that can be seriously impacted by burnout, but the degree of impact seems to be highest in fields involving knowledge work.

Re: The Reality of Developer Burnout

#44

I speculate that burnout is more psychological than physical. Ultimately, I think it stems from the shame arising out of the realization that giving 110% instead of 70% at your job accomplishes little but making things harder for yourself. A software engineer doesn't get more money giving 110%, and if they work to finish something quicker they're just rewarded with more work. Often engineers (being human) will want t…

You're right, but it's not shame. It's just a raw reinforcement feedback cycle. If you repeatedly put a lot of effort into things that fail (or fail to achieve an expected reward - monetary, status, etc...), and then you train your brain to associate labor with failure, so it creates a mechanism to avoid labor.

It's why scientists burn out regularly. 9/10 experiments fail - and that's for a highly skilled scientist.

Re: The Reality of Developer Burnout

#45
post #39

> Burnout is, unfortunately, a very real phenomena in software development These people sound like they are bomb technicians not software developers... > "I'd rather do anything else than this right now" — even though writing software is one of your favorite activities in the world. So? Does this mean you have burnt out? How does this compare to jobs like algorithmic trading or mission critical software? Burning out…

You are calling bullshit based some vague feelings of "job difficulty"? Do you have a robust mental model of the day to day experiences of these people who you are calling bullshit on? If not, I would be careful with your words. It can come off as fairly snide, ignorant, and callous.

I am saying depression is caused by large variety of factors and not just coding, if you have personal problems you will burnt out cos of them, and that will affect your coding, you can't blame software development for that. Also unless you are doing really stressful work what is it that makes you burn out?

Maybe you have other interests? Not wanting to code all day every day does not mean you have burnt out.

Also the words "burnt out" sounds like one those buzz words people come up to feel like more special snow flakes...

What are examples of this in other professions that put tons of stress on you? Compare that to writing code in cozy office...

Re: The Reality of Developer Burnout

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been much happier since quitting the Twitter/Medium bubble. I've limited my HN time as well.

I find myself doing the same thing with HN. Most of the time I love it, but it seems once in awhile the contrarians come out to play, and meaningful discussions drop to zero.

As someone who is feeling more and more contrarian lately in my comments here and regretting it, I think it's because after a decade of HN, everything starts to the look the same. Everybody is trying to sell a framework, a startup, a language, or their own personal brand and it turns into a big circlejerk of everyone patting themselves on the back because they've got some secret knowledge. Sometimes it doesn't seem like any real learning is going on as nothing is scientific or rigorous or anything more than an anecdote. You start to wonder how different some of this stuff is than hundreds of religions that have long since died.

This is a larger issue with developer burnout I suspect. You master one thing and there's someone standing on the corner saying..."well, actually, I've got something better" and there's a very real anxiety in that evaluation process. Does object-oriented programming suck? Are functional languages the future? Do you really want an SPA? Should you replace your C codebase with Rust... or Go? Is Bitcoin worth getting in on? etc etc

You will interact with some of the most brilliant people on HN, and most of them are friendly and mean well, but without actual disagreement nothing interesting gets said.

...that wasn't intentionally contrarian.

Re: The Reality of Developer Burnout

#47
post #42
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary; in this case, Twitter is a symptom. Instead, the problem is bubble-based news. The platform could've been something else, like Facebook, or RSS.

Platform has nothing to do with it. If you keep reading unrealistic marketing stories and believe what they say... well you are the problem... A lot of people read the same things, should we all burn out?

> A lot of people read the same things, should we all burn out?

Eventually? Would everyone burn out at an equivalent speed?

I don't know the answer to your question. I do wonder if it has to do with being closed or open minded. The difference of a person enjoying being in a bubble, and one who wants to think outside of the box.

Also, there are platforms where people gather who think outside of the box. However at some point they become so popular, that the status quo of the masses takes over. (Reddit seems an excellent example of this.) To me, it seems akin to the principles of the Temporary Autonomous Zone (TAZ) [1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporary_Autonomous_Zone

Re: The Reality of Developer Burnout

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I speculate that burnout is more psychological than physical Since programming is mental and not physical....yes?

No, I mean that burnout is not caused by physical things like lack of sleep, improper diet, lack of exercise, etc.

yeah! It's amazing how much people give fixing these things as a remedy for burnout, and yet (in my anecdata) it never works. One common advice is taking an unplanned vacation, but tha can be even worse, because it reinforces your brain's burnout by rewarding the burnout feedback cycle at a meta-level.

Re: The Reality of Developer Burnout

#49
One of the amazing things about software that we all write is how well it integrates with many other aspects of life, particularly (though without a doubt not exclusively) intellectual pursuits.

This is, of course, why it pays what it does: Software for software's sake pays about like math for math's sake, with the same people paying.

But unfortunately it seems that despite the deep integration with other facets of work and life, most professional developers seem to basically write code 80-100% of their time (including associated activities like meetings etc.). Far fewer developers are also domain experts (or at least domain enthusiasts) and spend, say, 30-50% of their time coding and the remainder working within the domain or on integration.

I wonder if this separation between the coders and the domains contributes to burnout. Maybe it's more economically efficient (specialization and all that) and we all like our abstractions. But having a lack of meaningful contexts to switch to, i.e. eating ice cream for every meal for lack of broccoli, can't be great. Directly gaining the benefit of the software should also help with perspective, motivation and an appreciation of the work invested.

But maybe it's too hard to find people who can fill what are effectively 2(+) roles in given field? In what areas other than science/engineering do people actually do this?

Re: The Reality of Developer Burnout

#50

One of the amazing things about software that we all write is how well it integrates with many other aspects of life, particularly (though without a doubt not exclusively) intellectual pursuits. This is, of course, why it pays what it does: Software for software's sake pays about like math for math's sake, with the same people paying. But unfortunately it seems that despite the deep integration with other facets of w…

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