Americans Are Putting Billions More Than Usual in Their 401(k)s • Hacker News Board

Re: Americans Are Putting Billions More Than Usual in Their 401(k)s

#251

Post by eli_gottlieb » Thu, Jan 05, 2017, 7:49 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #232

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same weight is one human, one vote. Period. Your system has only ensured that a few swing states like Ohio exercise a tyranny of the minority over the rest of us[1]. You keep implying that the rest of us aren't Americans and don't deserve an equal voice, and don't be surprised if we start trying to secede or revolt violently against the tyrants ruling over America's urban majority against our will. [1] -- http://…

> The same weight is one human, one vote. Period. You are entitled to your opinion! That's not how the system is currently designed. > You keep implying that the rest of us aren't Americans and don't deserve an equal voice, and don't be surprised if we start trying to secede or revolt violently against the tyrants ruling over America's urban majority against our will. Good luck with that. You want to bleed out in the…

>Good luck with that. You want to bleed out in the street, go for it. Plenty of other first world countries for me to move my family to.

Very few others with low taxes, no universal health-care, no universal pension, and a general fetish for empowering the rural bourgeoisie at everyone else's expense.

Personally, I've got three countries on my short list to apply to, maybe four. But I'm still going to start taking self-defense lessons, because with a neo-fascist government, you people have gone too damn far. You are enabling the most violent, evil elements in society, and that warrants a response.

Re: Americans Are Putting Billions More Than Usual in Their 401(k)s

#252

Post by readams » Thu, Jan 05, 2017, 7:50 PM UTC

awinder wrote: post #182

readams wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No; investments go toward productive work to create economic value. Social Security doesn't have any element that would actually create wealth. It works exactly like a Ponzi scheme.

This is almost too ridiculously misinformed a statement to even justify replying to, but since it's easy enough, the SS trust funds earn interest through investment as necessitated by law. They've also been used as an intergovernmental loan vehicle, acting to keep gov't debt lower than it would otherwise have been. It's not a Ponzi scheme.

The trust fund is an accounting fiction.

Social Security is paid out entirely by proceeds from people paying into the system. If ever the number of new people paying in is not enough to cover the outflows, then the system collapses. That is how a Ponzi scheme works.

Re: Americans Are Putting Billions More Than Usual in Their 401(k)s

#253

Post by ones_and_zeros » Thu, Jan 05, 2017, 7:52 PM UTC

etjossem wrote: post #91

dawhizkid wrote: post #43

I'm counting on basic income being a thing when I retire.

Basic income will come with a corresponding increase in prices for consumer goods across the board. As demand for everything beyond the most essential staples goes up, prices will be adjusted upward until supply is able to satisfy new demand. Even if you're right, you will still want to have saved some money.

Yes a price increase is a first order effect of demand increasing. In capitalist economies demand is great because of the second and third order effects.

Re: Americans Are Putting Billions More Than Usual in Their 401(k)s

#254

Post by eli_gottlieb » Thu, Jan 05, 2017, 7:53 PM UTC

Kadin wrote: post #240

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We could just eliminate the contribution cap. Then it keeps working in perpetuity, because we'd actually be taxing the people who have money .

That would eliminate even the thin handkerchief of SS being a sort of mandatory government-run savings program, and not a bald faced tax-and-redistribute system. Which, as you can see from comments upthread, is -- even though I personally don't think it's true -- one of the arguments that people regularly make in favor of SS when they feel it's under threat ("it's your money", "you paid into it and you should get you…

>That would eliminate even the thin handkerchief of SS being a sort of mandatory government-run savings program, and not a bald faced tax-and-redistribute system.

So bloody what? I've got no problem taking from the rich to fund a basic income to keep the elderly off cat-food. I've got parents and a grandmother left who need Social Security.

>When it becomes a straightforward tax, then it'll be attacked like every other tax during the periodic political pendulum-swings in favor of lower taxes and fewer government programs in general.

It already is attacked during regular political pendulum swings. Both Clinton and Bush 2 tried to privatize Social Security.

Re: Americans Are Putting Billions More Than Usual in Their 401(k)s

#255

Post by chrisabrams » Thu, Jan 05, 2017, 7:53 PM UTC

knz wrote: post #139

chrisabrams wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bingo! This is the best attitude I have seen in the whole thread. Social Security is an authoritarian play, or a power play. Another way to look at it: if every single US tax payer had to manually pay their taxes, instead of them being auto-drawn from their respective W2 employer, you'd see more people asking the question "who's money is this really?" This is why the fair tax or similar plans will never pass. The pow…

> Social Security is an authoritarian play, or a power play A more charitable view would be that social security is an attempt to provide a minimum standard of living for all seniors and the disabled. How do you propose that society cares for these people, particularly the disabled, if it's not done at a societal level? Retirement also benefits the young/middle aged by ensuring jobs open up.

I think the older generation should give way to the younger generation. After all, it is the younger generation that is required to run the world while the older retires. However, as it is currently, the older generation is robbing the younger generation. The younger generation is paying for entitlements that it knows it will never receive. That is not sustainable, fair, or in my opinion: necessary.

It should not be the governments job to manage retirement funds. That's why I said it's a power play, because if you made social security an open market with competition, you would probably see more positive support and results.

Re: Americans Are Putting Billions More Than Usual in Their 401(k)s

#256

Post by jellicle » Thu, Jan 05, 2017, 7:55 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #202

baddox wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the alternative is tyranny of the minority? It doesn't reassure me that we give much more weight to a minority of voters just because they live in less densely populated areas. That's completely arbitrary.

Lots of decisions in life are arbitrary, or based on fuzzy moral standings.

The U.S. should move to a political system where coastal city-dwelling individuals have 4x the voting power of people who live inland and in rural areas.

Re: Americans Are Putting Billions More Than Usual in Their 401(k)s

#257

Post by pawn » Thu, Jan 05, 2017, 7:55 PM UTC

baddox wrote: post #196

toomuchtodo wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority

So the alternative is tyranny of the minority? It doesn't reassure me that we give much more weight to a minority of voters just because they live in less densely populated areas. That's completely arbitrary.

It could be argued that 100 people living in 3 counties have a greater diversity of concerns and opinions than 100 people sharing an apartment complex.

Re: Americans Are Putting Billions More Than Usual in Their 401(k)s

#258

Post by chrisabrams » Thu, Jan 05, 2017, 7:55 PM UTC

mahyarm wrote: post #224

chatmasta wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a great point I don't see brought up often enough. It also has a lot of implications for the "gig economy" and independent contractors. If the majority of the workforce works as independent contractors, the government will not be able to use employers to collect ("withhold") taxes automatically from workers' paychecks. The IRS will need to wait for the contractors to explicitly pay their own taxes. I suspect…

My guess is the government will create legislation where it requires large marketplaces to automatically withhold taxes by default, such as ebay, airbnb, uber, lyft, task rabbit, amazon, doordash etc.

This has already started with fees. Fees are just a synonym for taxes, or money that does not go in your pocket.

Re: Americans Are Putting Billions More Than Usual in Their 401(k)s

#259

Post by legodt » Thu, Jan 05, 2017, 7:55 PM UTC

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #241

legodt wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being intolerant of bigots doesn't exactly make you as bad as them... Parent comment is wrong and overgeneralizing a bit (as others have pointed out, awful people exist everywhere and transcend the bounds of class and geography), but the line of thinking you are getting at that it is hateful to be agressive against perpetuators of evil is somehow equal to their hate is dangerous and incorrect. It isn't fascism when y…

Being eager to label (and therefore dismiss) half the country does make you as bad as them. In particular, it makes you a bigot. (Where "you" = thesimpsons1022, not legodt.) No, I am not an apologist for bigotry. That's why I'm against it when it's done by liberals, just the same as I'm against it when it's done by conservatives. The only difference is that liberals don't do it based on race. I'm not sure that makes…

I'm definitely willing to wager that half of the country is awful, but that's if you're willing to use voter turnout as a valid sample size to represent the population at large. That's not the point. Racism is bigger than political parties. It's crazy to say that the left doesn't do racism, of course both sides carry that weight! I'm really confused by your comment, I don't know what point you were trying to make beyond trying to absolve yourself of a perceived implication of racism.

Re: Americans Are Putting Billions More Than Usual in Their 401(k)s

#260

Post by chrisabrams » Thu, Jan 05, 2017, 7:56 PM UTC

entee wrote: post #161

chrisabrams wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bingo! This is the best attitude I have seen in the whole thread. Social Security is an authoritarian play, or a power play. Another way to look at it: if every single US tax payer had to manually pay their taxes, instead of them being auto-drawn from their respective W2 employer, you'd see more people asking the question "who's money is this really?" This is why the fair tax or similar plans will never pass. The pow…

Is that true? It's certainly true that under many of these alternative tax structures, we can't fund what we do right now. If instead there was a list that said, "Here is the amount of money that went to each of the major federal departments", maybe people would say, "really? that's cheap!" or "really? we spend that much on defense???" Who knows, but they'd be better informed. As I recall to a rough first approximati…

> Personally every time I look at my pay statement the taxes sting badly. However, I think the more interesting discussion to have is, "what are we spending money on?"

As a self-employed libertarian I think the same thing :O

I think most of the services that are offered through the government are noble or necessary..I disagree that it should be the government that runs many of them.