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Goodbye to GNU Libreboot

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Re: Goodbye to GNU Libreboot

#51

Post by djsumdog »

stronglikedan wrote: post #37
_pfxa wrote: post #30

This is from http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreboot/2016-09/msg00036... LR> I'm declaring here and now to the whole world that Libreboot is no longer LR> part of the GNU project. I do not believe that the FSF or the GNU project LR> deserve to exist. Mistakes are everywhere and are done by everybody. A mistake was done by some people in FSF, the reaction is exaggerated to say the least. Furthermore, it's not clea…

> A mistake was done by some people in FSF Probably just one person, and she was fired for it (or, more likely, them).

Letting go of people often has to do with a series of mistakes. It's something most companies and non-profits can't do lightly. There is so much potential blowback, like with this case. These decisions usually involve a couple of people. We don't have introspection into this, so we can't be sure. Resist the urge to assume.

Re: Goodbye to GNU Libreboot

#52

Post by apetresc »

jheriko wrote: post #24

The attitude that comes across in this message... this is the problem with GNU and that whole sector of the OSS community that seems to follow the 'Stallman' way. "you aren't allowed your freedom because " from people who advocate software freedom is a total headfuck

What freedom is being withheld by the FSF in this message? They're granting the maintainer's wishes to a T. The maintainer even explicitly requested that the FSF make a public announcement about it.

Re: Goodbye to GNU Libreboot

#53

Post by ben0x539 »

josteink wrote: post #43
ben0x539 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's fair to lay the blame for the drama at her feet. The FSF could have handled this more professionally from the beginning.

What are you talking about? FSF handled it 100% examplary from the get go. Leah Rowe however was the toxic and crazy drama queen who couldn't keep a civil tone, and even her initial email included the word "fuck". To top it off, she had zero proof for her allegations, and the person she claimed to represent specifically didn't want her to raise those allegations in her name. In the rest of the world, we refer that as…

If the FSF thought that minimizing drama was a priority, they could have accepted that the maintainer wanted to take libreboot out of the GNU project without prolonging the whole thing. Like, basically this submission, but a couple of months earlier.

Also, more generally, I maintain that there's more nuance to the question of professional behavior than whether your communication includes common swear words.

Re: Goodbye to GNU Libreboot

#54

Post by lol_why »

====

31 October 2016 (Down's syndrome) A new noninvasive test for Down's syndrome will eliminate the small risk of the current test.

This might lead more women to get tested, and abort fetuses that have Down's syndrome. Let's hope so!

If you'd like to love and care for a pet that doesn't have normal human mental capacity, don't create a handicapped human being to be your pet. Get a dog or a parrot. It will appreciate your love, and it will never feel bad for being less capable than normal humans.

====

Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20161101101115/https://stallman....

====

31 October 2016 (Down's syndrome) A new noninvasive test for Down's syndrome will eliminate the small risk of the current test.

This might lead more women to get tested, and abort fetuses that have Down's syndrome. Let's hope so! According to Wikipedia, Down's syndrome is a combination of many kinds of misfortune. When children with Down's syndrome are born, they are human beings and I wish the best for them. They deserve the best care, which will enable some of them to live independently. However, when we have the chance to assure children are born without Down's syndrome, it's our duty to do so for their sake.

====

Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20161207215342/https://stallman....

Re: Goodbye to GNU Libreboot

#55

Post by _pfxa »

discordianfish wrote: post #48
_pfxa wrote: post #30

This is from http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreboot/2016-09/msg00036... LR> I'm declaring here and now to the whole world that Libreboot is no longer LR> part of the GNU project. I do not believe that the FSF or the GNU project LR> deserve to exist. Mistakes are everywhere and are done by everybody. A mistake was done by some people in FSF, the reaction is exaggerated to say the least. Furthermore, it's not clea…

> Whatever the case is, even though I know null about the project, I can easily say that Leah Rowe, whoever she might be, is apparently toxic for the project. So you don't know anything about the project beside that their main/core maintainer accuses GNU project to have fired a trans person and therefor she doesn't want to work there anymore. Call me SJW or Gutmensch but if that makes you 'easily say' that she is 'ap…

I know quite a bit about FSF and GNU. The maintainer of libreboot here makes blunt accusations and decides in the name of other participants of the project (and they don't all agree to her: http://zammit.org/libreboot-screwup.html). She uses vulgarity, over-reacts, abuses her position to publish articles in the name of all the community on the project website.... see, who would you find more dependable in this context?

Re: Goodbye to GNU Libreboot

#56

Post by niftich »

discordianfish wrote: post #39

Looking at how one-sided the discussion here but especially on reddit is should be worrying. Not saying it's the case, we all don't know, but if the accusations are right, it's absolutely reasonable to not want to work with these people. You can say all you want about being professional and not having politics influence your technical decisions, but that's easy to say if it's not your life style choices that are disc…

This situation is subject to information asymetry, and, as with some other conflicts, reduces down to a question of trust [1]. Half a year ago, the question of the Tor Project and accusations against Appelbaum formed a situation that also caused unrelated third-parties to evaluate who they trust more, which, given the gravity and nature of the the accusations, was an extremely contentious exercise. And in that case, the accusations, if truthful, came directly from victims.

In this case, I don't think it's quite a fair ask to unilaterally imply the existence of a troubling conflict, taking a moral position in the name of a different allegedly aggrieved party, force people to pick a side, then punish them for their choice. It seems many other people feel the same way, which they express in varying tones.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12173742#12174545

Re: Goodbye to GNU Libreboot

#57

Post by gkya »

djsumdog wrote: post #47
_pfxa wrote: post #30

This is from http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreboot/2016-09/msg00036... LR> I'm declaring here and now to the whole world that Libreboot is no longer LR> part of the GNU project. I do not believe that the FSF or the GNU project LR> deserve to exist. Mistakes are everywhere and are done by everybody. A mistake was done by some people in FSF, the reaction is exaggerated to say the least. Furthermore, it's not clea…

It's very difficult to classify people by e-mails. I worked with so many people who were very nice to me. We'd discuss requirements. I'd even type up timelines and e-mail them docs. Next day, a thread with every manager in the planet saying our team was stonewalling everything, being unhelpful, etc. etc. My boss would come up to my cube and say, "Stop e-mailing these people! Why are you e-mailing them? Pick up the ph…

Well it might've been a difficult week for her. The last twelve months have been truly and profoundly terrible for me, this wouldn't justify me acting mad like her though. It's obvious that she's not the kind of person to bear responsabilities.

Re: Goodbye to GNU Libreboot

#58

Post by fsf-fen-sucks »

I find it amazing anyone labeling anyone other than Richard Stallman as Toxic. I mean this guy has been a pariah his entire career because of his TOXIC behavior and social views, and somehow we are supposed to believe that Leah is toxic. For not wanting to have to deal with the Douche anymore. However they still want to work on the free software project they started/runs/hostes and makes money to help support other developers and thereby helping core boot. At a time when EVERYONE wants blob-less systems. It's just amazing how you people are willing to become a lynch mob and attack her, but Stallman is god! It's just amazing and shows how toxic the tech/foss community is to people they don't accept.

On a side note this is a perfect example of how you cannot trust centralized organizations like FSF. They are no longer under the communities control and instead are most interested in protecting the organization and their jobs, not their values or the rights of others.

Re: Goodbye to GNU Libreboot

#59

Post by fsf-fen-sucks »

apetresc wrote: post #52
jheriko wrote: post #24

The attitude that comes across in this message... this is the problem with GNU and that whole sector of the OSS community that seems to follow the 'Stallman' way. "you aren't allowed your freedom because " from people who advocate software freedom is a total headfuck

What freedom is being withheld by the FSF in this message? They're granting the maintainer's wishes to a T. The maintainer even explicitly requested that the FSF make a public announcement about it.

They are publicly passive aggressively attacking Leah, and simply saying they won because FSF can't win and gave up. But lets fire some shots of more drama off at them on the way out the door.

Re: Goodbye to GNU Libreboot

#60

Post by jheriko »

apetresc wrote: post #52
jheriko wrote: post #24

The attitude that comes across in this message... this is the problem with GNU and that whole sector of the OSS community that seems to follow the 'Stallman' way. "you aren't allowed your freedom because " from people who advocate software freedom is a total headfuck

What freedom is being withheld by the FSF in this message? They're granting the maintainer's wishes to a T. The maintainer even explicitly requested that the FSF make a public announcement about it.

its the tone and attitude, not the literal interpretation of the statement nor what has happened. 'once your project is under the GNU aegis its there for life' - its fair enough to make that decision, but the result here is not respecting the ideal that very many people have about having a freedom to do what you want with 'your stuff', and what constitutes 'your stuff'

if you don't particularly care for ideals of ownership or materialism then this isn't so objectionable. it makes a lot of sense, because then you don't even see the project as 'yours' and doing so is obviously counter to the ideals of the GNU project and FSF.

however, the sad practical reality of the world is that most people care a great deal about these kinds of things - its a part of why there is so much proprietary software, and also why many places i have worked forbid GPL dependencies, often in a list of "free software licenses we can't allow in dependencies" along with some statement about why - which is usually about how its 'infectious' nature means that it can't be used without forcing other parts of a product to be made into GPL software - an unacceptable price to pay, because the freedom to keep things private is considered as being so valuable.

"you can use our free (as in speech, not beer) software freely, but provided that you sacrifice your freedom of ownership on your own software"

this is another one of those kinds of statements i generalised as with "you aren't allowed your freedom because "

i don't think its a big leap to consider that sort of statement mind boggling from a philosophical standpoint - you want to advocate freedom with something that curtails freedom?

its the same principle with the idea that GNU projects are somehow owned by GNU, and that this is irreversible. again, its trying to advocate the philosophy by doing something that is counter to it.

now, i don't consider the maintainer in this case to be in the right. they should have been aware that this is the nature of GNU projects. i also consider her attitude to be so far out of touch with reality and overly-self-entitled that it is a little disturbing... but back to the point, i don't roll in these circles and even i am aware of this philosophy for GNU projects... but aside from that leah should have learned what her decision would mean before making it.

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