Earlier quoted context omitted.
Always an interesting choice, the upside if you join is you get some money if the suit is settled, I presume the only downside is that you pretty much won't ever be employed there ever if they have paid out a legal settlement check to you. (It turns out it isn't illegal not to hire based on previously being sued by someone). I doubt they would be forced to hire you if they settle. (which would be a huge downside in m…
At no point in the future will you be any younger. So if you think you are not being hired because they are discriminating based on age, then there is no downside to participating in the settlement--you won't be hired either way. If you think there is a chance you will be hired in the future, then they are not discriminating based on age.
Heath and Fillekes v. Google Inc. Lawsuit
31–40 of 68 posts
Re: Heath and Fillekes v. Google Inc. Lawsuit
#32Earlier quoted context omitted.
It takes extraordinary privilege to even conceive of the idea of privilege. Everyone else just lives their lives.
A similar comparison can be made with respect to a lot of specialist fields or esoterica. For people using the internet as consumers, concepts like the CAP theorem aren't going to be something they would just stumble across: it would take interest in the field and concentrated study. It doesn't say anything about the validity of the concept, either for or against.
I am serious. There are many other ways to see humanity and the relationship between groups of people. Some may be more beneficial.
Re: Heath and Fillekes v. Google Inc. Lawsuit
#33I think this happened to my wife, but her job category was not listed. When my small company was acquired by Google (and I had to interview to keep my job), we were forced to re-locate across the country from the east coast to Mountain View. My wife is a stats professor with tenure at a mid-tier university on the east coast, and she moved with our family. As its hard to get a tenured academic job, we found something at Google that sounded exciting to her.
She applied to Google for a Sr. Data Scientist job, and passed the phone and on-site interviews with flying colors. However, she was rejected by the committee. The problem was that, at Google, the committee both decides if you passed your interview, and then decides on your job level. The job level is arrived at using past work experience.
In my wife's case, the problem was that the committee deadlocked on how to level her. She had 5+ years of academic experience, and 5+ years of research experience (think national lab type stuff; research w/o teaching). However, she'd only briefly worked in industry many years ago between her MS and PhD. So rather than hire her, they told her to "go work someplace else for a year, then apply again". (direct quote, as relayed by her recruiter to me, as I referred her)
If she was a fresh PhD, there would have been no problem. She would have been hired as a level 4, and everything would be fine. But given that they didn't know how to rate her experience, it was just easier for them to pass on her entirely. This tends to bias the hiring process to hiring younger folks, without experience.
And, BTW, that's why I'm no longer at Google, and we're all back on the east coast.
Re: Heath and Fillekes v. Google Inc. Lawsuit
#34Earlier quoted context omitted.
A similar comparison can be made with respect to a lot of specialist fields or esoterica. For people using the internet as consumers, concepts like the CAP theorem aren't going to be something they would just stumble across: it would take interest in the field and concentrated study. It doesn't say anything about the validity of the concept, either for or against.
Wouldn't it be useful to for people to acknowledge the privilege of being able to conceive of privilege, and step back so that other voices can be heard? I am serious. There are many other ways to see humanity and the relationship between groups of people. Some may be more beneficial.
Re: Heath and Fillekes v. Google Inc. Lawsuit
#35Earlier quoted context omitted.
It happens all the time. The first couple of interviews are just a phone screen. After the on-sites the packet goes to a committee, always, which makes the final decision having read all the feedbacks from all the interviews. The hiring committee isn't some last moment check/balance, it's the primary way hiring decisions are made. Or at least that's how it worked when I was an interviewer at Google.
When I applied one year ago, my recruiter reviewed feedback of on-site interviews before passing it to the committee (which she decided not to do in my case). From what I understand, reruiters are rated based on the quality of candidates they pass to the hiring committee, so they have an incentive to only let the best pass.
This may vary depending on the office involved.
Re: Heath and Fillekes v. Google Inc. Lawsuit
#36Earlier quoted context omitted.
Wouldn't it be useful to for people to acknowledge the privilege of being able to conceive of privilege, and step back so that other voices can be heard? I am serious. There are many other ways to see humanity and the relationship between groups of people. Some may be more beneficial.
If your aim is to encourage people to "step back so that other voices can be heard", please elaborate how your initial comment supports this in a meaningful and constructive way.
Re: Heath and Fillekes v. Google Inc. Lawsuit
#37Why would to want to work for an organsisation that (supposedly) discriminates against you anyway?
Why would you want to eat at a restaurant that discriminates against you anyway? Why would you want to go to a school that discriminates against you anyway? Why would you want to ride a bus that discriminates against you anyway?
Re: Heath and Fillekes v. Google Inc. Lawsuit
#38Earlier quoted context omitted.
If your aim is to encourage people to "step back so that other voices can be heard", please elaborate how your initial comment supports this in a meaningful and constructive way.
Hopefully, it encourages reflection. The privilege narrative seems to be accepted as truth rather than one of many ways of looking at things. Why don't we examine it? Isn't it notable that it originated with the thoughts of two very educated people Du Boise and Peggy McIntosh, and that there isn't an evidentiary basis? How do we know that it is better than other narratives? We seem to just accept it to be true.
These words do nothing to encourage reflection or elicit any of the questions you're now asking; they just trivially dismiss the parent.
Edit to add:
I'm not discussing privilege. I'm arguing that your comment says nothing about whether or not a concept is valid because some people aren't aware of it or concerned about it.
Anyway, I recognize this is now well off-topic and likely fruitless. I apologize for the noise.
Re: Heath and Fillekes v. Google Inc. Lawsuit
#39Earlier quoted context omitted.
If your aim is to encourage people to "step back so that other voices can be heard", please elaborate how your initial comment supports this in a meaningful and constructive way.
Hopefully, it encourages reflection. The privilege narrative seems to be accepted as truth rather than one of many ways of looking at things. Why don't we examine it? Isn't it notable that it originated with the thoughts of two very educated people Du Boise and Peggy McIntosh, and that there isn't an evidentiary basis? How do we know that it is better than other narratives? We seem to just accept it to be true.
Re: Heath and Fillekes v. Google Inc. Lawsuit
#40TL;DR: Google often does not know how to hire senior people who are not luminaries, this screws people in their 40s. I think this happened to my wife, but her job category was not listed. When my small company was acquired by Google (and I had to interview to keep my job), we were forced to re-locate across the country from the east coast to Mountain View. My wife is a stats professor with tenure at a mid-tier univer…
(note, the below are all very very much personal opinions :P Most of what i'm going to talk about is all covered by a large number of books by various people, etc at this point.)
First, sorry to hear about your experience. Hope you don't take the below personally.
Having sat on google hiring committees (2-3 a week sometimes) for the better part of 11 years now, i'm going to say this is probably not accurate. Note that i only do SWE committees, though.
I'm also not sure how you derived this view of what occurred (if you are going by what the recruiter said, know that most recruiters have a jaded view of committees who reject their candidates. Otherwise, i'd love to know what facts you have) . You seem to be assuming a lot of the reasons the committee said what it did.
The answer you received is, in my view, usually the answer given when "we don't think they did well enough to hire them, but think that they may get there with practice". For example, in SWE world, this is usually what happens when committees feel like these people are on the wrong side of being able to design and implement stuff, but saw things in the interviews that made folks believe they may be able to get above that bar. (or put bluntly, not obviously worth the risk right now, may be worth the risk in the future). That isn't to say Google doesn't hire people who need mentoring in coding/etc, it's more "committee didn't feel it was a sure enough thing to take the risk".
Note that there are second chance, etc committees if the recruiter felt the committee was wrong. Committees aren't always right, and they definitely aren't meant to be always right.
The leveling decision is also completely independent of the hiring decision in just about all cases. There's some interesting history here, but the statement "both decides if you passed your interview, and then decides on your job level", is wrong now, and was wrong for pretty much everywhere but MTV for a long time.
In any case, if what you say occurred, generally in SWE world the only reason they wouldn't make an offer at the lower level is if "they've not grown in 10000 years to a sane level of engineer, so we don't ever expect them to", or the person has said they wouldn't take it and so it would be pointless. In fact, most of the discussion that used to happen was "we think they are qualified for this lower level, is it worth discussion or have they said they wouldn't accept it" (because they have competing offers.
The first seems ... not the case here, unless your wife did very badly (IE would have had to be two levels down). Sorry. So i find your experience very very strange, though i don't do data scientist committees.
You started with: "Google often does not know how to hire senior people who are not luminaries, this screws people in their 40s."
This is not right.
IMHO, Google often tries not to hire people who have failed to grow to the level and skill set they want out of people with a large amount of experience or who want a senior position.
But that's literally not about age (despite people wanting to claim it is), it's about growth vs experience. They do even try to account for what the experience was, etc. But usually it's the other way around - person wants senior position at Google, isn't qualified for it, complains google hates people who are older. Google would, in most cases, happily offer them a position they are qualified for, they just don't want that one (or google doesn't have such a need ATM). Personally, I wish that being XXX level engineer at some company mattered. But i've also met plenty of people who got promoted a lot just for surviving long enough, and couldn't code/design their way out of a paper bag despite being "senior principal engineer" or whatever. So i understand why they use interviews to try to gauge level instead.
Past that, if you've spent 35 years in industry, and can't code/do algorithms/design/or any measurable metric better than a person fresh out of college, and aren't more self directed, etc, than the fresh out, it may not make sense to hire you.
But again, that's still not about age. Because the person fresh out of college could be 70. I'd still say "hire that person", because they still have potential. The person who has 35 years of experience and still not grown is a known quantity, and that known quantity is not above the bar.