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I've removed all ad network code from my blog

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Re: I've removed all ad network code from my blog

#111

Post by losteric »

coldpie wrote: post #61
JStanton617 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly what an ad network is

Yeah. The problem with current ad networks is twofold. One is advertisers require metrics, metrics require some form of tracking or JS, and advertisers don't trust the ad networks to give accurate metrics, so they require the ability to embed their own JS. This is where you get the app store redirects and malware. Two, ad networks are scummy as shit and don't do any auditing so long as advertisers are willing to pay.…

Traditional news media is dying because advertisers are running to the internet, where they can get lots of highly targeted impressions and deep metrics for pennies on the dollar... perhaps that trend will turn around soon.

Advertising's tragedy of the commons isn't unique to the internet. Other media went through the same adoption cycle of over-promising followed by consumer backlash.

I'm hopeful we'll see advertisers return to the model of (mostly) blindly trusting their advertisers. It will be interesting to see how our largely ad-supported internet changes as a result.

Re: I've removed all ad network code from my blog

#112

Post by walterbell »

ddebernardy wrote: post #70
notheguyouthink wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about a sort of metrics protocol? Ie, the ad network puts up it's own JS, the advertisers don't get to put up any code. The Networks JS will be configured to optionally call a custom metrics endpoint with some data - ie, the advertisers own servers. Very little trust is needed, and customers don't get crazy JS on their pages. Is something wrong with this model?

> Is something wrong with this model? Detecting fraudulent ad views and clicks.

Which parties perform fraud / bot detection today?

Re: I've removed all ad network code from my blog

#113

Post by ReverseCold »

vertex-four wrote: post #71
notheguyouthink wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about a sort of metrics protocol? Ie, the ad network puts up it's own JS, the advertisers don't get to put up any code. The Networks JS will be configured to optionally call a custom metrics endpoint with some data - ie, the advertisers own servers. Very little trust is needed, and customers don't get crazy JS on their pages. Is something wrong with this model?

The issue is that large-scale advertisers don't actually trust the ad networks - the network could make up data, and has less reason to track fraudulent clicks/etc.

> The Networks JS will be configured to optionally call a custom metrics endpoint with some data - ie, the advertisers own servers.

So no more trust required for the advertisers?

Re: I've removed all ad network code from my blog

#114

Post by pjmlp »

fiatjaf wrote: post #4

Ok, you have a sponsorship model that works because you're probably very famous. That doesn't solve anyone's problem, because almost no one is famous. How can we replace ad networks with something better and saner?

> How can we replace ad networks with something better and saner?

Paying for content like we do with physical objects, instead of expecting others to give us content for free.

Re: I've removed all ad network code from my blog

#115

Post by devmop »

fiatjaf wrote: post #4

Ok, you have a sponsorship model that works because you're probably very famous. That doesn't solve anyone's problem, because almost no one is famous. How can we replace ad networks with something better and saner?

I'd like to see an ad-network which you can pay and they'll serve you transparent ads instead.

The underlying content providers still get their pay per view, the ad network is still in the loop and no one needs to implement anything new - the technology is already built.

Re: I've removed all ad network code from my blog

#116

Post by phkahler »

busterarm wrote: post #101
phkahler wrote: post #90

He says ad blockers are part of the problem, and yet he's effectively doing ad-blocking on his end too. Ad blockers prevent the kind of stuff he doesn't like from getting in on the client side, he's manually rejected them on the server side. Notice that his "sponsorship" banners are not going to be blocked by ad blockers. There are two fundamental problems that gave rise to the ad networks: 1) Scale - nobody wants to…

If I had to pick between relative anonymity and ads, I would pick anonymity every time. I'd love for the internet to go full São Paulo. Don't care what services I have to lose or pay for in the process either.

I would pick anonymity many times, and it can be achieved as a feature. But once you start out anonymous it's really hard to add verifiable identity to that. In other words is easy to strip identity but hard to establish it.

Re: I've removed all ad network code from my blog

#117

Post by johnward »

mrweasel wrote: post #15
fiatjaf wrote: post #4

Ok, you have a sponsorship model that works because you're probably very famous. That doesn't solve anyone's problem, because almost no one is famous. How can we replace ad networks with something better and saner?

It also doesn't solve the issues for most advertisers. I can't imagine that a large e-commerce site would want to make thousands of individual deals with sites that may or may not generate the desired traffic. His solution doesn't really scale, for the advertisers, which is why the ad networks exists. My main issue with ad networks is that they simply aren't technically competent enough to run an internet facing busi…

This is why networks like buysellads started. Advertisers wanted blog traffic but didn't want direct deals or standard adsense units.

Re: I've removed all ad network code from my blog

#118

Post by rpastuszak »

vertex-four wrote: post #71
notheguyouthink wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about a sort of metrics protocol? Ie, the ad network puts up it's own JS, the advertisers don't get to put up any code. The Networks JS will be configured to optionally call a custom metrics endpoint with some data - ie, the advertisers own servers. Very little trust is needed, and customers don't get crazy JS on their pages. Is something wrong with this model?

The issue is that large-scale advertisers don't actually trust the ad networks - the network could make up data, and has less reason to track fraudulent clicks/etc.

Yesss, and with video ads, where VAST is involved, once the ad script starts loading, it has no knowledge about the actual media file, as it has to follow a chain of XML files leading to different middlemen (for tracking purposes), ad exchanges, etc... Bidders in ad exchanges can be exchanges as well.

Dealing with bots, fraudulent clicks and malware is one of the things that sets some ad platforms from the really nasty ones.

Re: I've removed all ad network code from my blog

#119

Post by wheaties »

mrweasel wrote: post #15
fiatjaf wrote: post #4

Ok, you have a sponsorship model that works because you're probably very famous. That doesn't solve anyone's problem, because almost no one is famous. How can we replace ad networks with something better and saner?

It also doesn't solve the issues for most advertisers. I can't imagine that a large e-commerce site would want to make thousands of individual deals with sites that may or may not generate the desired traffic. His solution doesn't really scale, for the advertisers, which is why the ad networks exists. My main issue with ad networks is that they simply aren't technically competent enough to run an internet facing busi…

>> My main issue with ad networks is that they simply aren't technically competent enough to run an internet facing business.

As someone who works in Ad tech, let me be the first to say that there are a few A-players and a ton of C-players. The problem is, the C-players are so crappy that everyone associates all of ad tech with them. A good analogy is the difference between Black Hat and White Hat SEO. Most of the C-players right now don't have any incentive to invest in the tech so they can be where my employer currently is on that spectrum.

Clarification: I don't speak for my employer.

Re: I've removed all ad network code from my blog

#120

Post by gpderetta »

chriswarbo wrote: post #107
jerf wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where is your $150/month coming from? I'm not convinced the average user is worth that much in ads per month. The numbers I've seen coming out of Facebook put it in low-single digit dollars per month per user for Facebook, and I would tend to imagine they're getting more out than many rather than less. But, honest question, if you've got a good source on that I'd love to see it. (There's also the fact that the utilit…

> Where is your $150/month coming from? The unfortunate thing is we're already paying that money, since the money spent by companies on ads comes out of the revenue we give them for goods and services. Hence we can afford to support things through Patreon, Flattr, etc. instead of through ads, if the existing money were shuffled around. We probably can't do it as well as through ads, but to free up that money the sell…

> to free up that money the sellers of goods and services would have to stop charging us for their ads,

There is a possible mechanism that could free up that money: without ads sellers can't rely on popularity to sell their products and have to rely more on underselling the competition.

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