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Sweden reveals results from pilot of 30-hour work week

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Re: Sweden reveals results from pilot of 30-hour work week

#151

Post by tempestn »

rebootthesystem wrote: post #135
scrollaway wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Last time I did the same I lost the ability to vouch. Shoot an email to the mods, I'm sure they'll restore it. Looking at rebootthesystem's previous comments, a couple are a bit heated but in general it's decent quality. I've made worse comments than that one without getting flagged myself; assuming good faith goes a long way.

People are just too sensitive these days. Calling bullshit for what it is without going around in circles not to offend anyone used to have a name: Being honest. These days people are so delicate that get offended by straight talk and "flag" you. I wonder if they realize the facts don't change at all. Every time I run into these kinds of situations I remember that my grandparents survived a Genocide. People are so in…

Calling bullshit might not the best approach if you want to convince others to see things the same way though. Could you lead with your reasoning, rather than by outright dismissing the original argument? (Especially using a term like 'bullshit', or even 'hippie logic' that's likely to shut people down from considering your points, whether that makes them delicate or not.) Just putting myself in the parent commenter's shoes, if I expressed my thoughts regarding the study, and read the response that my position was hippie talk without merit, my natural reaction wouldn't be to reconsider my position.

Re: Sweden reveals results from pilot of 30-hour work week

#152

Post by chillwaves »

rebootthesystem wrote: post #135
scrollaway wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Last time I did the same I lost the ability to vouch. Shoot an email to the mods, I'm sure they'll restore it. Looking at rebootthesystem's previous comments, a couple are a bit heated but in general it's decent quality. I've made worse comments than that one without getting flagged myself; assuming good faith goes a long way.

People are just too sensitive these days. Calling bullshit for what it is without going around in circles not to offend anyone used to have a name: Being honest. These days people are so delicate that get offended by straight talk and "flag" you. I wonder if they realize the facts don't change at all. Every time I run into these kinds of situations I remember that my grandparents survived a Genocide. People are so in…

I find it odd you use your grandparents (horrible) experience (I'm assuming in WWII?) to bolster your argument. Not sure what that has to do with being needlessly antagonistic.

And using terms like "bullshit" and "hippie logic" and calling that "being honest" does not serve the discussion, rather whatever need your ego has to invalidate the expressions of others.

Re: Sweden reveals results from pilot of 30-hour work week

#153

Post by thorawway99k »

mhurron wrote: post #11

They're abandoning it because of an obvious requirement? Did someone not realize that in a 24 hour operation that consists of physical activities, cutting hours would require more people to carry the same workload?

It cost the city more, but it saved the national government 4.7 million in unemployment payments.

Re: Sweden reveals results from pilot of 30-hour work week

#154

Post by twblalock »

xolb wrote: post #39

If this experiment shows that the costs are too high reducing working hours, I wonder how UBI could be cost effective.

UBI can't be cost-effective as a living wage. Living wage UBI would cost more than the entire current US government budget.

Some UBI proposals aim to replace all of the current welfare systems with one UBI system that costs the same. (That wouldn't be what happens, but let's consider it for the sake of argument.) Those proposals have to limit UBI benefits to an amount that is below a living wage in order to stay within the budget of the current welfare system, assuming everyone receives the same amount of money (that's the definition of UBI, and any system that gives different amounts to different people is not universal or basic.)

Plus, the government's budget would have to shrink if tax receipts drop, which they would clearly do if lots of people chose to live off UBI instead of working. So even the non-living-wage UBI proposals are probably unrealistic.

UBI seems like a good idea at first, but it seems less attractive the more you look at it.

Re: Sweden reveals results from pilot of 30-hour work week

#155

Post by Vaebn »

To be honest I think thats not a nearly throughout economic analysis.

To begin with, as noted in the article by having to pay more people, it removed some from unemployment. That as noted in the article basically halved the cost of the extra cost.

But hold on. Someone removed from unemployment doesn't just sit and look pretty. Unemployment benefits are usually nothing to write home about compared to an actual wage and where previously one could just subsist they newly employed individual could now Consume much more strongly. Consume in this case means buying tomatoes, buying starbucks, buying cinemas tickets, buying dresses and whatever. All this stuff moves the economy.

The question is then, has the economic impact of all this economy moving been taken into account?

Re: Sweden reveals results from pilot of 30-hour work week

#156

Post by nitrogen »

rebootthesystem wrote: post #135
scrollaway wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Last time I did the same I lost the ability to vouch. Shoot an email to the mods, I'm sure they'll restore it. Looking at rebootthesystem's previous comments, a couple are a bit heated but in general it's decent quality. I've made worse comments than that one without getting flagged myself; assuming good faith goes a long way.

People are just too sensitive these days. Calling bullshit for what it is without going around in circles not to offend anyone used to have a name: Being honest. These days people are so delicate that get offended by straight talk and "flag" you. I wonder if they realize the facts don't change at all. Every time I run into these kinds of situations I remember that my grandparents survived a Genocide. People are so in…

I think it was the "hippie" epithet that upset people (using the name of a group of people as an insult, on top of the original insult, is not likely to go well here). People who advocate for shorter work weeks are genuinely concerned about the big picture, long-term effects of overwork. You might get more traction if you recognize that and explain that maybe they're missing some essential little picture, short-term details, rather than dismissing and insulting their views.

Re: Sweden reveals results from pilot of 30-hour work week

#157

Post by twblalock »

rebootthesystem wrote: post #135
scrollaway wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Last time I did the same I lost the ability to vouch. Shoot an email to the mods, I'm sure they'll restore it. Looking at rebootthesystem's previous comments, a couple are a bit heated but in general it's decent quality. I've made worse comments than that one without getting flagged myself; assuming good faith goes a long way.

People are just too sensitive these days. Calling bullshit for what it is without going around in circles not to offend anyone used to have a name: Being honest. These days people are so delicate that get offended by straight talk and "flag" you. I wonder if they realize the facts don't change at all. Every time I run into these kinds of situations I remember that my grandparents survived a Genocide. People are so in…

You aren't a martyr for free speech or the free exchange of ideas. You're just rude. You could have easily made the same arguments in a constructive way rather than leading with insults.

Despite what your grandparents have been through, I bet they'd slap you if you spoke to them as rudely as the way you've addressed everyone here.

Re: Sweden reveals results from pilot of 30-hour work week

#158

Post by beedogs »

crististm wrote: post #69
jahaja wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You are right that this consequence could've been seen from miles away. Which is why this is very close to just propaganda against a 6h work day.

I'm commenting on rebootthesystem comment which is flagged and dead. I don't understand why - he makes a perfectly valid and coherent point.

He was trolling. Look at all the hyperbolic nonsense in his comment.

Re: Sweden reveals results from pilot of 30-hour work week

#160

Post by cardiffspaceman »

rebootthesystem wrote: post #129
alkonaut wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't know ANYONE who would be happier if they got a 25% pay cut First of all, relax. Second: Pay was not cut. This was an experiment with a 30h work week with 100% pay. Unions would never agree to anyones pay being cut. The benefits they were looking for in this case would not be higher employment. The main benefit would be reduced people on sick leaves because of work related illness (stress, depression, overwo…

> First of all, relax. Second: Pay was not cut. First of all, I am relaxed. Second of all, please read my comment and the comment I was responding to. It says: >> the hours that were cut also wouldn't have to be paid to the people not working them. and then the conclusion is: >> In a perfect situation this would have led to higher employment numbers and happier employees. Which, again, is hippie logic. I don't know a…

Historically it was the experience of people who wanted the output of cottage workers, that the cottage workers would only work up to the point where they had earned their desired income level, rather than up to what the customer wished they would do. Gathering the cottage workers into factories enabled the boss/customer to insist on more hours of work (compensated at piece rate originally). People have shown themselves to be satisfied with doing less work for less money, even in the presence of demand that they could choose to earn more by meeting. This is perhaps a "cut in pay" from a total pay point of view. In terms of earned pay it is the same pay rate. During the Swedish demo it sounds like they were studying the effect of the reduced hours in isolation from the effect of a hypothetical pay cut. Clearly some workers ARE hippies and would be happy to work less than some of us do for less pay, a legitimate trade that autonomous, free individuals could agree to.
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