> Go is regarded as the most complex board game ever invented I'm not sure that's an accurate statement.
A counter example would be the easiest way to disprove it.
Google reveals secret test of AI bot to beat top Go players
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Re: Google reveals secret test of AI bot to beat top Go players
#52> Go is regarded as the most complex board game ever invented I'm not sure that's an accurate statement.
what about "most complex board game that is more than a few centuries old"?
Re: Google reveals secret test of AI bot to beat top Go players
#53Earlier quoted context omitted.
I would call its style unorthodox rather than nonhuman. It still plays common josekis (standard opening sequences) but often chooses uncommon variations. Its mid game is full of startling moves backed by VERY good reading. There's definitely still discernible strategy that us mortals can learn from. If I recall correctly, the version that beat Lee Sedol was trained on amateur games plus self-play. My guess would be t…
> My guess would be that this new version relies more heavily on pro games. Unlikely, since AlphaGo can now generate large numbers of "pro quality" games from scratch. I think it's far more likely it is an autodidact at this point.
They solved heads up poker in this manner recently. They claim that the chances anyone can beat this computer in the long run are now infinitesimal.
Re: Google reveals secret test of AI bot to beat top Go players
#54Earlier quoted context omitted.
Human moves tend to fit a narrative and be explainable, although often for very concrete reasons. For example: "I am sketching out territory while attacking an opponent group." "I am making my group safe so that I will not have to worry about its life while I accomplish other strategic goals." "I am making a very strong group so that I can use it to make it harder for my opponent to accomplish anything." Master, on t…
> Human moves tend to fit a narrative and be explainable, although often for very concrete reasons. I'm not a Go player, but could it not be that if the AI played its moved in a more human order you could see what was going on and assign a narrative to the moves, but the AI can see the order of the moves doesn't matter sometimes so it seems to play more vaguely/randomly to observers? For example, say the AI played a…
More likely, playing it in order commits to a certain approach too early, and makes that approach predictable. Starting from the middle leaves other options open.
Given that it trains against a copy of itself, with equivalent predictive powers, it makes sense that it would pick moves that have lots of branching possibilities because that would increase its effectiveness against itself.
Re: Google reveals secret test of AI bot to beat top Go players
#55Earlier quoted context omitted.
Human moves tend to fit a narrative and be explainable, although often for very concrete reasons. For example: "I am sketching out territory while attacking an opponent group." "I am making my group safe so that I will not have to worry about its life while I accomplish other strategic goals." "I am making a very strong group so that I can use it to make it harder for my opponent to accomplish anything." Master, on t…
When playing against a much stronger player, it's always very hard to figure out why they play tenuki (make a move somewhere else on the board, apparently uncorrelated to the current fight). When AI gets strong enough (and it seems like it has already), it will just tenuki everyone all the time, while winning. Sounds like exactly what's happening already. It's past the event horizon for human understanding.
> past the event horizon for human understanding
I think this phrase is going to pop up more and more frequently.
Re: Google reveals secret test of AI bot to beat top Go players
#56> Go is regarded as the most complex board game ever invented I'm not sure that's an accurate statement.
For example, Arimaa, which has a more complex ruleset and a bigger game tree. It was designed to be difficult for AI, but in practice the complexity was difficult for humans too, and AI was developed to beat the best humans using classical chess AI techniques and some clever heuristics.
Go is "most complex" only when measured by difficulty of implementing a AI to beat the best humans.
Re: Google reveals secret test of AI bot to beat top Go players
#57Wonder when we will see AI tutors appear? Seems like there is a massive potential to train an AI super player then have it teach you. Does anyone know of such tools yet? Guess there are probably many AI augmented things we use all the time (Google Search) but just don't know it. Fascinating to think.
There was a recent post here about a new LiChess feature that identifies mistakes in your (or someone else's) games, prompts you to look for a better move, and tells you the best move if you can't figure it out. I think this is a form of AI tutoring.
Re: Google reveals secret test of AI bot to beat top Go players
#58> Go is regarded as the most complex board game ever invented I'm not sure that's an accurate statement.
For example, Arimaa, which has a more complex ruleset and a bigger game tree. It was designed to be difficult for AI, but in practice the complexity was difficult for humans too, and AI was developed to beat the best humans using classical chess AI techniques and some clever heuristics. Go is "most complex" only when measured by difficulty of implementing a AI to beat the best humans.
If the human race had collectively had only a decade of Go-playing experience (as was the case with Arimaa), it might have been possible for an AI coded with "classical techniques" to defeat them.
(To be specific, my guess is that we'd have been at the amateur-dan level, and the initial MCTS revolution would have been enough for the computers to win.)
Re: Google reveals secret test of AI bot to beat top Go players
#59Wonder when we will see AI tutors appear? Seems like there is a massive potential to train an AI super player then have it teach you. Does anyone know of such tools yet? Guess there are probably many AI augmented things we use all the time (Google Search) but just don't know it. Fascinating to think.
There was a recent post here about a new LiChess feature that identifies mistakes in your (or someone else's) games, prompts you to look for a better move, and tells you the best move if you can't figure it out. I think this is a form of AI tutoring. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13241669
Very cool. Thanks!
Re: Google reveals secret test of AI bot to beat top Go players
#60Earlier quoted context omitted.
Really hope to see one machine against another. In future we'd probably have game tournament of AI machines. Example my tensorflow-build machine against your openai-build machine in a StarCraft game.
Corewars, where the program is written by a neural net.
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