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Google reveals secret test of AI bot to beat top Go players

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Re: Google reveals secret test of AI bot to beat top Go players

#21

Post by bluetwo »

dfan wrote: post #7

One thing that isn't made clear in this writeup is that Master plays in a very nonhuman style, as opposed to the version of AlphaGo that beat Lee Sedol, which mostly played like a strong human except for a few surprising moves. My first guess when I saw Master's games was that it was a program like AlphaGo that had its policy network trained from scratch rather than being bootstrapped by being given the goal of imita…

I don't know much about Go but I thought a comment about AlphaGo was interesting that it played in a way to marginally beat the player, which was different that most masters played, which is to clearly beat the opponent by as wide a margin as possible.

Is this accurate? Does MasterP also use this style? Are there humans that can play this way?

(I'm asking you because you seem to know what you are talking about here.)

Re: Google reveals secret test of AI bot to beat top Go players

#22

Post by sp332 »

koolba wrote: post #8

This seems like the beginnings of the plot of an anime I'd want to watch. Season two would probably start with the developer's getting complacent and a Chinese AI entering the scene.

Season three would follow "Colossus: The Forbin Project" with the two bots demanding to be linked together, joining forces, and taking over the world.

Re: Google reveals secret test of AI bot to beat top Go players

#23

Post by Florin_Andrei »

jorblumesea wrote: post #16
dfan wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Human moves tend to fit a narrative and be explainable, although often for very concrete reasons. For example: "I am sketching out territory while attacking an opponent group." "I am making my group safe so that I will not have to worry about its life while I accomplish other strategic goals." "I am making a very strong group so that I can use it to make it harder for my opponent to accomplish anything." Master, on t…

This is usually called the metagame and evolves over time. My guess is that due to these unseen tactics the metagame will change and human playstyle will become more AI-like and adapt to the changing circumstances. The real question is whether people would be able to keep pace with rapidly changing AI playstyles?

> The real question is whether people would be able to keep pace with rapidly changing AI playstyles?

If we're far enough from "perfect play", then the answer is no.

Re: Google reveals secret test of AI bot to beat top Go players

#24

Post by jaxondu »

koolba wrote: post #8

This seems like the beginnings of the plot of an anime I'd want to watch. Season two would probably start with the developer's getting complacent and a Chinese AI entering the scene.

Really hope to see one machine against another. In future we'd probably have game tournament of AI machines. Example my tensorflow-build machine against your openai-build machine in a StarCraft game.

Re: Google reveals secret test of AI bot to beat top Go players

#25

Post by rtkwe »

jorblumesea wrote: post #16
dfan wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Human moves tend to fit a narrative and be explainable, although often for very concrete reasons. For example: "I am sketching out territory while attacking an opponent group." "I am making my group safe so that I will not have to worry about its life while I accomplish other strategic goals." "I am making a very strong group so that I can use it to make it harder for my opponent to accomplish anything." Master, on t…

This is usually called the metagame and evolves over time. My guess is that due to these unseen tactics the metagame will change and human playstyle will become more AI-like and adapt to the changing circumstances. The real question is whether people would be able to keep pace with rapidly changing AI playstyles?

Depends on if people can figure out how to evaluate the more random seeming 'AI style' moves. With the complexity of Go it's possible to only way to really tackle the complexity is to wrap groups of moves together in a local narrative.

Re: Google reveals secret test of AI bot to beat top Go players

#26

Post by jkkramer »

dfan wrote: post #7

One thing that isn't made clear in this writeup is that Master plays in a very nonhuman style, as opposed to the version of AlphaGo that beat Lee Sedol, which mostly played like a strong human except for a few surprising moves. My first guess when I saw Master's games was that it was a program like AlphaGo that had its policy network trained from scratch rather than being bootstrapped by being given the goal of imita…

I would call its style unorthodox rather than nonhuman. It still plays common josekis (standard opening sequences) but often chooses uncommon variations. Its mid game is full of startling moves backed by VERY good reading. There's definitely still discernible strategy that us mortals can learn from.

If I recall correctly, the version that beat Lee Sedol was trained on amateur games plus self-play. My guess would be that this new version relies more heavily on pro games.

Re: Google reveals secret test of AI bot to beat top Go players

#27

Post by conistonwater »

jkkramer wrote: post #26
dfan wrote: post #7

One thing that isn't made clear in this writeup is that Master plays in a very nonhuman style, as opposed to the version of AlphaGo that beat Lee Sedol, which mostly played like a strong human except for a few surprising moves. My first guess when I saw Master's games was that it was a program like AlphaGo that had its policy network trained from scratch rather than being bootstrapped by being given the goal of imita…

I would call its style unorthodox rather than nonhuman. It still plays common josekis (standard opening sequences) but often chooses uncommon variations. Its mid game is full of startling moves backed by VERY good reading. There's definitely still discernible strategy that us mortals can learn from. If I recall correctly, the version that beat Lee Sedol was trained on amateur games plus self-play. My guess would be t…

> Its mid game is full of startling moves backed by VERY good reading.

This is pretty similar to what chess engines do.

Re: Google reveals secret test of AI bot to beat top Go players

#28

Post by gertef »

bluetwo wrote: post #21
dfan wrote: post #7

One thing that isn't made clear in this writeup is that Master plays in a very nonhuman style, as opposed to the version of AlphaGo that beat Lee Sedol, which mostly played like a strong human except for a few surprising moves. My first guess when I saw Master's games was that it was a program like AlphaGo that had its policy network trained from scratch rather than being bootstrapped by being given the goal of imita…

I don't know much about Go but I thought a comment about AlphaGo was interesting that it played in a way to marginally beat the player, which was different that most masters played, which is to clearly beat the opponent by as wide a margin as possible. Is this accurate? Does MasterP also use this style? Are there humans that can play this way? (I'm asking you because you seem to know what you are talking about here.)

Humans play for a large lead because they don't have enough memory/power to accurately estimate the value of their positions, so they play for a buffer -- AlphaGo has higher confidence in its valuation, so it can play it closer -- ~85% confidence of winning by 5 stones (with room for error) vs 99% chance of winning by 2 stones

Re: Google reveals secret test of AI bot to beat top Go players

#29

Post by badminton1 »

hwc wrote: post #6
badminton1 wrote: post #3

It would be good to start experimenting with handicap stones to understand how many stones stronger the bot is. http://senseis.xmp.net/?Handicap Also experimenting with a new ranking system beyond 9 dan.

Elo Ratings are unbounded.

Yes but players are usually presented by their rank, e.g: Ke Jie 9P, Lee Sedol 9P.

Then, professional dans in some Go associations are granted by total wins over their career rather than relative strength to another rank (e.g: Japan).

Re: Google reveals secret test of AI bot to beat top Go players

#30

Post by pmontra »

MR4D wrote: post #2

This is impressive. According to the article, the bot has not yet lost. I think at the end of 2017, we may have to say that computers have conquered Go. Interesting that the timing is 20 years after mastering chess.

The series is over with a score of 60-0.

You can find all the games at http://tieba.baidu.com/p/4922688212?pn=1

It's chinese but the pictures are universal and the comments don't really matter much.

By the way, Google Translate makes a pretty horrible work at translating those pages. I think they need to add some more DeepMind to it :-)

To be fair, they probably don't have much training data for the jargon of the game of go or of any other game.

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