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Grumpy: Go running Python

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Re: Grumpy: Go running Python

#51

Post by vram22 »

sfifs wrote: post #27

The main reason I moved from coding in Python to Go as my main language many years back is because concurrency was such a pain in standard Python (the other was compile time error checking). It's interesting to see the same pain has now made caused the runtime itself to be implemented in Go. It's a pity C extensions (often used in scientific computing) are not supported but Go does have support via CGO, so maybe some…

Does anyone know the technical reasons why C extensions are not (at least easily, apparently) supported by Go? Is it to do with Go's being a GC'd language? I would have thought that should not be a reason per se, since Python also has GC, but has plenty of extensions written in C. But I'm not a language internals expert.

Also, further signs that GC may not be the reason, is that D also has GC, but can link to C libraries somewhat easily (not sure about all cases or how far the ease goes).

Re: Grumpy: Go running Python

#52

Post by ot »

quotemstr wrote: post #45

I'm a bit disappointed that the blog post doesn't explain why the authors didn't choose PyPy instead.

The objective of the authors is to efficiently exploit multi-core parallelism. PyPy still has a GIL. They have been doing some experiments with transactional memory, but performance is quite bad.

Re: Grumpy: Go running Python

#53

Post by trotterdylan »

sfifs wrote: post #27

The main reason I moved from coding in Python to Go as my main language many years back is because concurrency was such a pain in standard Python (the other was compile time error checking). It's interesting to see the same pain has now made caused the runtime itself to be implemented in Go. It's a pity C extensions (often used in scientific computing) are not supported but Go does have support via CGO, so maybe some…

I'm not philosophically opposed to supporting C extensions. The additional complexity just was not deemed to be warranted since the YouTube frontend doesn't use a lot of C extensions.

In principle it's possible to implement something like JyNI (http://jyni.org/) or CPyExt (https://morepypy.blogspot.de/2010/04/using-cpython-extension...) to bridge the CPython and Grumpy APIs. In practice, marshalling data across the interface can be very expensive.

Re: Grumpy: Go running Python

#54

Post by ionforce »

Animats wrote: post #48

- Amusingly, it runs Python 2.7, even though this project started long after Python 3.x came out. - It's a hard-code compiler, not an interpreter written in Go. That implies some restrictions, but the documentation doesn't say much about what they are. PyPy jumps through hoops to make all of Python's self modification at run-time features work, complicating PyPy enormously. Nobody uses that stuff in production code,…

What does "hard-code compiler" mean?

Re: Grumpy: Go running Python

#55

Post by sea6ear »

Reminds me of the (old I guess?) ShedSkin project to automatically translate Python to C++.

I suppose the easy concurrency and ability to inter-operate with Go libraries is really the driver for Go over that.

Re: Grumpy: Go running Python

#56

Post by dekhn »

machbio wrote: post #40
naasking wrote: post #4

I wonder why the Grumpy Fibonacci is so much slower than CPython for 1 thread. Seems weird given Grumpy is compiled.

Guido insists that single threaded performance of Python has the highest priority - http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=214235 I am not sure, any implementation of Python will beat the single threaded performance of Cpython..

IIRC, IronPython single-threaded performance was competitive with CPython.

Re: Grumpy: Go running Python

#57

Post by scrollaway »

trotterdylan wrote: post #53
sfifs wrote: post #27

The main reason I moved from coding in Python to Go as my main language many years back is because concurrency was such a pain in standard Python (the other was compile time error checking). It's interesting to see the same pain has now made caused the runtime itself to be implemented in Go. It's a pity C extensions (often used in scientific computing) are not supported but Go does have support via CGO, so maybe some…

I'm not philosophically opposed to supporting C extensions. The additional complexity just was not deemed to be warranted since the YouTube frontend doesn't use a lot of C extensions. In principle it's possible to implement something like JyNI ( http://jyni.org/ ) or CPyExt ( https://morepypy.blogspot.de/2010/04/using-cpython-extension... ) to bridge the CPython and Grumpy APIs. In practice, marshalling data across t…

Out of curiosity, what C extensions does YouTube use?

If this is good enough to run YouTube's python code already it's honestly super impressive. Well done.

Re: Grumpy: Go running Python

#58

Post by zardeh »

ionforce wrote: post #54
Animats wrote: post #48

- Amusingly, it runs Python 2.7, even though this project started long after Python 3.x came out. - It's a hard-code compiler, not an interpreter written in Go. That implies some restrictions, but the documentation doesn't say much about what they are. PyPy jumps through hoops to make all of Python's self modification at run-time features work, complicating PyPy enormously. Nobody uses that stuff in production code,…

What does "hard-code compiler" mean?

It seems to be that it pesudo-transpiles python to go and compiles that down using a normal go toolchain.

Re: Grumpy: Go running Python

#59

Post by poooogles »

Animats wrote: post #48

- Amusingly, it runs Python 2.7, even though this project started long after Python 3.x came out. - It's a hard-code compiler, not an interpreter written in Go. That implies some restrictions, but the documentation doesn't say much about what they are. PyPy jumps through hoops to make all of Python's self modification at run-time features work, complicating PyPy enormously. Nobody uses that stuff in production code,…

>- Amusingly, it runs Python 2.7, even though this project started long after Python 3.x came out.

Python 2.7 is what's running at Google. Not really surprising they're looking at this considering the fast approaching end of (core dev) support for Python 2.7.

Write an interpreter in another language and programatically port modules to Go. Seems pretty sensible to me.

Re: Grumpy: Go running Python

#60

Post by ot »

There's no mention of whether Grumpy passes the CPython test suite. Until it doesn't, it's not a Python runtime, it's a compiler for a language with Python-like syntax.

Compilers like this, from almost-Python to say C/C++, have existed for a while: Cython, Shedskin, Nuitka are some examples.

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