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The Indian government is set to endorse Universal Basic Income

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Re: The Indian government is set to endorse Universal Basic Income

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Did it end black money? No. > Will it end counterfeit currency? No. > Does it help citizens in any way? No. 70% of those polled (average of all polls conducted by media and independent media houses) disagree with you. I, as a Free Citizen of India, disagree with you. You fail to mention about all those getting caught with counterfeit currency and black money and still continue to be caught. Are those the figments o…

> 70% of those polled (average of all polls conducted by media and independent media houses) disagree with you. We measure success or failure of such economic policies with statistics, not by political opinion polling. > You fail to mention about all those getting caught with counterfeit currency and black money and still continue to be caught. They have been conducting raids to catch black money hoarders and counter…

> We measure success or failure of such economic policies with statistics, not by political opinion polling.

You can't go by statistics in an economic move like demonetization this early. The move itself is done keeping in mind the long term impact. 70% of those polled understand that and hence keep an open-mind.

> They have been conducting raids to catch black money hoarders and counterfeit currency forever. They have escalated it recently, but it could have been done without demonetization as well.

The reason it has escalated is because of demonetization. It wouldn't have been possible without it. There would be no way for the Government to track cash to catch these hoarders/evaders.

> What benefit did we get out this whole scheme?

These are the two benefits I directly get from this scheme:

1. Home loans reduced by 90 basis points (and will continue to reduce). 2. Property prices have dropped and will continue to drop significantly as most of the property transactions happened in black.

There are many other benefits but they don't directly affect me (like 10 year fixed rate of interest for senior citizens, 6000 rupees for pregnant women, moving of people from informal economy to formal economy etc). But these two benefits are more than enough to resonably change my lifestyle.

> My family have personally suffered significant monetary loss on our 100% tax paid cash, and suffered significant loss in business because of this chaos. Millions of citizens have hard time feeding their family because of this jumla.

What kind of business is your family in that caused "personally suffered significant monetary loss on our 100% tax paid cash"? I'm curious to know and understand.

Re: The Indian government is set to endorse Universal Basic Income

#72
post #49

I don't see how they would afford this. Rough approximations show that even giving $20 a month to India's 900 million adult population would mean an annual expenditure of 216 billion dollars, more than 4 times the country's annual defence budget. Where does all this money come from? Increased taxes from the middle class (so that they pay $40 to get $20)?

There's a class of wealthy people they can tap into.

India's nominal GDP is $1,820 per person.

Re: The Indian government is set to endorse Universal Basic Income

#73
post #42
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall Indian colleagues telling me that the India government sets maximum prices for certain basic foodstuffs, such as rice or flour?

That's only in so-called 'fair price shops'. In practical terms they run out of (or claim to run out of) foodgrains before demand is met. This subsidised material is then sold for a profit illicitly. The same scam happens in e.g. subsidised medicines. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_distribution_system

Even if there wasn't any fraud involved, the expected result of forcing prices for the end-consumer below the market price is shortages for the end-consumer.

Since people often tend to mentally model the non-end-consumer part of the chain as having infinite supply (since in their day-to-day lives it appears to be the case) in their mind, that is often counter-intuitive. It may be easier to understand the flip side of the same principle, which is that if you hold the price above the market price, you'll end up with excesses left unsold, because insufficient numbers of consumers want to buy at that price. Since this is phrased in terms of the end-consumers not wanting to spend more than they want to, it's less counter-intuitive, and perhaps less politically offensive to some's sensibilities. But it's the exact same effect.

Re: The Indian government is set to endorse Universal Basic Income

#74

Have there been any studies on the impact to prices on staple foods? Because if everyone can afford food and basic items for living, does that mean the prices for these items will go sky high? Especially as supply will be short of demand?

You seem to be assuming that supply won't grow to accommodate expected demand, could you elaborate on why?

I have seen this happen in Pakistan during the years of Musharraf's presidency.

The economy was moving up and more investments were coming in. More money was flowing. The prices of local products went up, especially food. Of course, more foreign products also made their way into the country. Some people were profiting from this movement, but the people who were poor could not benefit and they sunk deeper and went hungrier.

The supply of food was never able to meet demand, so prices are still high even now. Income never went up as much to compensate for the higher prices. Something about the mechanics of price setting got stuck somewhere. It is difficult to say where though: policy, trade, corruption, inflation, deflation, waste, or maybe it was technological limits.

But the answer is more complicated than supply will grow to meet demand. My theory is that a stagnant poor economy brought greater equilibrium to wealth distribution. When the economic conditions were sustained, people achieved social efficiencies in trying to save the supply of products and squeeze more out of less. When the economy exploded, waste increased, and demand was never met, either for reasons where people switched trades and could not switch back, excessive trade costs kept prices high, or maybe prices only go down in times of recession.

If I reversed the question now though, I would ask why cannot current prices go down to accommodate for greater demand (even if the demand is financially weak).

Re: The Indian government is set to endorse Universal Basic Income

#75

Have there been any studies on the impact to prices on staple foods? Because if everyone can afford food and basic items for living, does that mean the prices for these items will go sky high? Especially as supply will be short of demand?

Price inflation of basic necessities is my major concern with BI schemes, I get the impression that noone really wants to discuss the other systems such as price fixing, and nationalisation of many services that would need to be deployed in parallel with basic income to prevent this from happening.

Because for all that some people may still vigorously claim otherwise, we all have pretty much come to grips with the fact that Communism doesn't work. If BI only works with price fixing and extensive nationalization, that's equivalent to saying it doesn't work. "Price fixing and extensive nationalization" has been tried. A lot. The signal is pretty clear.

(Note my "if". I'm only giving an "A -> B" statement, I'm not claiming A itself must be true.)

Re: The Indian government is set to endorse Universal Basic Income

#76

Every time UBI is brought up, vague arguments about inflation come up. However, I've never seen anyone cite economic literature that actually quantifies such an effect. It's just a claim justified by an understanding of economics 101. However: there's a reason why a study of economics doesn't end at the 101 level. Economics 101 is a grossly simplified toy facsimile of the actual capitalist economy. There are professi…

Because claiming that UBI will cause inflation is not justified by an understanding of Economics 101. Most basic economic theory will state that inflation is basically a monetary phenomenon. (Now, if you use monetary expansion to pay for the UBI, as the occasional person has suggested, then Econ 101 would suggest inflation, but that's true for any expenditure funded that way.)

Re: The Indian government is set to endorse Universal Basic Income

#77

Every time UBI is brought up, vague arguments about inflation come up. However, I've never seen anyone cite economic literature that actually quantifies such an effect. It's just a claim justified by an understanding of economics 101. However: there's a reason why a study of economics doesn't end at the 101 level. Economics 101 is a grossly simplified toy facsimile of the actual capitalist economy. There are professi…

[deleted]

Re: The Indian government is set to endorse Universal Basic Income

#78
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Has it actually cut corruption? Yes it has. It depends again on your perspective. Looks like you have only read news of 100 deaths but failed to read news of the many political babus, black money hoarders and tax evaders getting caught with huge amounts of cash (with both old and new notes).

> Yes it has It would be helpful if you cited your sources for this. From what I've seen and read, most people found a way to launder their black money through brokers. [2] That's not just speculation, most of the 17 trn rupees of cash has found its way back into legal channels. [1] You were also very cavalier about the downsides of this move. Yes, those 100 deaths are a loss, but far more people were affected. Many…

> Judging by your comments on this thread, you neither know nor care about this. You speak as if the only downside to this entire affair was 100 people dying, all the while citing 0 sources.

No I care about it. But the problem is that most of them did not cite sources and were rhetorical. So I had to reply back in rhetoric. Since you cite sources I'll reply with sources too:

"It would be helpful if you cited your sources for this. From what I've seen and read, most people found a way to launder their black money through brokers. [2] That's not just speculation, most of the 17 trn rupees of cash has found its way back into legal channels. [1]"

Sure. Firstly your news reports are based on here-say and incorrect data. The correct RBI data is available in this article: http://swarajyamag.com/politics/the-rs-11-lakh-crore-deposit...

Always refer to RBI bulletins and press releases. Don't believe motivated reports.

> You were also very cavalier about the downsides of this move. Yes, those 100 deaths are a loss, but far more people were affected. Many did not have any money for a month or more because their employers did not have cash to pay them. There were 8 million affected workers in the beedi industry alone, more in other sectors. These are daily wage labourers, remember. [2]

Why are these daily wage laborers not paid through cheques or wire transfer? The Government of India already has a "Jan Dhan Yojana" which is a simple form that facilitates opening of bank accounts (along with e-banking facilities) for lower income groups without going through any hurdles (all you need is an Aadhar card to open the account). In fact, even the employers can do it for their laborers on their behalf (I have already done it for my maid servant). The real story is that the employers wanted to pay cash so they can fudge their Book of Accounts with a higher entry and claim tax deductions. There was no real-world transaction to back their claims and the Income Tax department had to take them at face value.

> Many farmers were forced to sell their crops for pittances to make ends meet. One example is cauliflower being sold for ₹ 1/kg. Its usually sold at ₹ 12. The prices of soyabeans was down by 77% [2]

I definitely sympathize with farmers. However, this is a short-term impact. Many of these farmers are adopting digital payments (PayTM, BHIM app etc) to transact and the Government is conducting camps educating farmers on digital payments. I recently bought bananas from a street vendor (who sell on carts and don't have a proper outlet) by paying through PayTM. You just need to wait for the long-term impact of this policy to play out.

Re: The Indian government is set to endorse Universal Basic Income

#79
post #49

I don't see how they would afford this. Rough approximations show that even giving $20 a month to India's 900 million adult population would mean an annual expenditure of 216 billion dollars, more than 4 times the country's annual defence budget. Where does all this money come from? Increased taxes from the middle class (so that they pay $40 to get $20)?

You can raise income taxes on the employed pay for UBI for the unemployed. Therefore, the cost would only be $20 * India's unemployed adult population, which is a lot less than 900 million.

Re: The Indian government is set to endorse Universal Basic Income

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Did it end black money? No. > Will it end counterfeit currency? No. > Does it help citizens in any way? No. 70% of those polled (average of all polls conducted by media and independent media houses) disagree with you. I, as a Free Citizen of India, disagree with you. You fail to mention about all those getting caught with counterfeit currency and black money and still continue to be caught. Are those the figments o…

> 70% of those polled (average of all polls conducted by media and independent media houses) disagree with you. We measure success or failure of such economic policies with statistics, not by political opinion polling. > You fail to mention about all those getting caught with counterfeit currency and black money and still continue to be caught. They have been conducting raids to catch black money hoarders and counter…

We measure success or failure of such economic policies with statistics, not by political opinion polling - Yes. Hence we need to check the data to see if worked instead of picking political points like blood of citizens or Gujarat riots.
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