Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Indian government is set to endorse Universal Basic Income

businessinsider.in

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 187 posts

Re: The Indian government is set to endorse Universal Basic Income

#31

Post by mljoe »

neilwilson wrote: post #18
aninhumer wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because no money is being created, it's being reallocated from other people, so it doesn't directly affect the money supply. The recipients are more likely to spend it, which creates some demand (and thus inflation), but it should still be less than the increase in spending power it provides them.

"Because no money is being created, it's being reallocated from other people, so it doesn't directly affect the money supply." And unfortunately that is bunkum. Money isn't stuff. If you take what is currently savings and put it into flow then you will get an increase in production - that is then effectively taken away and given to people who haven't earned it. The result is, over time, an increase in political press…

Governments have found one neat trick to hide what are exactly handouts from scrutiny like that. They call them "tax credits". A "tax credit" is literally just a handout, a $1000 tax credit means you get a $1000 check. You don't even have to pay any taxes to get a tax credit. It's a pure handout. But the phase "tax credit" implies that it is somehow connected to taxes that you've paid some time in the past, so in people's minds it's not a handout anymore. Even hardcore conservatives can get behind "tax credits"!

All you go to do is call the handout a tax credit and give it to almost everyone, and you implemented UBI. In the USA, you wouldn't even need a new system to implement. We have various proto-UBIs written in our tax code, the most notable being the Earned Income Credit, we would just need to "enhance" it.

Re: The Indian government is set to endorse Universal Basic Income

#32

Post by usrusr »

sharemywin wrote: post #5

I just don't see how it won't cause massive inflation. basically to the point that the payout is practically worthless.

Only really poor people will consume more. When those at the very low end of the income scale have, say, 100% more money through UBI (ignoring the actual value of that money, just sticking to the numbers for now), then high income earners would have 50% more, or 10% more or just 1% more, depending on their earned income. Relative to the high earning class, the poor will be able to bid more, inflation or not. A shift in resource allocation, "diverting water from golf courses to subsistence farmers", to paint a grossly simplified picture. Prices will rise, but not by the same amount as total income.

(theoretically there might be a few exceptions, e.g. goods that are not very flexible in supply and target a very specific low income demographic)

Re: The Indian government is set to endorse Universal Basic Income

#33

Post by probablybroken »

nashashmi wrote: post #24

Have there been any studies on the impact to prices on staple foods? Because if everyone can afford food and basic items for living, does that mean the prices for these items will go sky high? Especially as supply will be short of demand?

Price inflation of basic necessities is my major concern with BI schemes, I get the impression that noone really wants to discuss the other systems such as price fixing, and nationalisation of many services that would need to be deployed in parallel with basic income to prevent this from happening.

Re: The Indian government is set to endorse Universal Basic Income

#34

Post by snrplfth »

tornadoboy55 wrote: post #30
macspoofing wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That's great, but its just a sedative for the masses. As opposed to the great energy drink of communism?

No, and some difference will always be there. That's healthy - it aspires people to be more. But I'd like it to be more like Star-Trek: people work hard and achieve things for the prestige. If you become captain of a star ship, you're admired, and you (for example) still get more pretty ladies fawning after you than the helm officer. And he does so more than a dude who wants to do nothing but play GTA:XXIV on the Hol…

Good thing we just invented replicators.

Re: The Indian government is set to endorse Universal Basic Income

#35

Post by tdb7893 »

neilwilson wrote: post #20
tdb7893 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not creating any money so I don't get why it needs to be massively inflationary.

Very simple. You are moving stuff to people who don't work for a living and giving mere money in return. So there is less stuff available for those who work and more money chasing it. Which is inflation. Once those working realise they have been fiddled, they politically agitate to have the handouts stopped.

I think that it is true of implementing UBI decreases labor force participation a lot but I think it is a worry in UBI but it's an implementation issue and not inherent in the system. Welfare currently is giving money to people and inflation isn't out of control, even though welfare sometimes disincentives work. It's the same as the unemployment people talk about with the minimum wage, if it's poorly constructed then of course it will lead to lots of unemployment but in most cases it is fine.

Re: The Indian government is set to endorse Universal Basic Income

#36

Post by GordonS »

nashashmi wrote: post #24

Have there been any studies on the impact to prices on staple foods? Because if everyone can afford food and basic items for living, does that mean the prices for these items will go sky high? Especially as supply will be short of demand?

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall Indian colleagues telling me that the India government sets maximum prices for certain basic foodstuffs, such as rice or flour?

Re: The Indian government is set to endorse Universal Basic Income

#38

Post by drabiega »

nashashmi wrote: post #24

Have there been any studies on the impact to prices on staple foods? Because if everyone can afford food and basic items for living, does that mean the prices for these items will go sky high? Especially as supply will be short of demand?

You seem to be assuming that supply won't grow to accommodate expected demand, could you elaborate on why?

Re: The Indian government is set to endorse Universal Basic Income

#39

Post by shripadk »

shabda wrote: post #11
shripadk wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll take liberty to correct your perspective: A demonetization move that directly affected livelihood of billion Indians, with a possibility of large-scale riots, but ended with only 100 deaths. I don't see how it cannot be termed a success. Can you think of any major move that directly affected the entire country but did not end in large scale riots? If you need to understand what a "hasty decision" means take a lo…

I'll take liberty to correct your perspective: A demonetization move that directly affected livelihood of billion Indians, but we don't know whether for good or for worse. I don't like Mr Modi, but I was cautiously optimistic the day it was announced. However over last two months, its been clear to me that no thought was put in the decision. If you want to look at a data driven journalism to the flip flops, you can s…

Then I'll take the liberty to correct your understanding of my comment:

I spoke about: a move that directly affected livelihood of billion Indians, "with a possibility of large-scale riots". Since those large-scale riots did not happen it can be termed a success. Why am I talking about "large-scale riots"? Because the Opposition (even the Supreme Court of India) predicted large-scale riots: http://www.merinews.com/mobile/article/India/2016/11/22/note...

"Supreme Court says situation after demonetisation serious, fears riots":

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/demonetisation-sc-q...

Re: The Indian government is set to endorse Universal Basic Income

#40

Post by RealGeek »

shripadk wrote: post #7
madmax108 wrote: post #4

After the recent Demonetization brouhaha, which led to over a 100 deaths[1], most of them from the lower strata of society, it makes sense for the current government to start off UBI whole heartedly, especially since they can tie in the entire demonetization/cashless economy/jan dhan etc. stories together. However, I sincerely hope that the execution is well planned, rather than hasty. This article though seems to be…

I'll take liberty to correct your perspective: A demonetization move that directly affected livelihood of billion Indians, with a possibility of large-scale riots, but ended with only 100 deaths. I don't see how it cannot be termed a success. Can you think of any major move that directly affected the entire country but did not end in large scale riots? If you need to understand what a "hasty decision" means take a lo…

> a possibility of large-scale riots, but ended with only 100 deaths. I don't see how it cannot be termed a success.

What is the upside we got with demonetization that we can call success?

Did it end black money? No.

Will it end counterfeit currency? No.

Does it help citizens in any way? No.

Then what exactly is the success we achieved here?

Modi have blood of 100 citizens on his hands this time instead of thousands like it was in Gujarat riots under his leadership. Is that the benchmark of success?

Post reply on HN