Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

‘Routine’ Jobs Are Disappearing

wsj.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

141–150 of 206 posts

Re: ‘Routine’ Jobs Are Disappearing

#141

Post by dragonwriter »

notahacker wrote: post #122
dragonwriter wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Welder's generally aren't middle class regardless of income" is true if you define middle class in the way it traditionally is in relation to capitalist and modern mixed economies, that is, the middle class are those for whom both capital holdings and labor provide a substantial share of their income, usually because they derive the bulk of their income.by applying Thier own labor to.their own capital (though the mi…

I don't think definitions of "middle class" which refer solely to proportion of income derived from capital have ever really been more mainstream or useful than "white-collar"/"blue-collar" or salary-range based distinctions. Even Marxists whose entire economic philosophy is based on capital relations are usually happy to bracket wage-compensated managers alongside smallholders in the petit-bourgeoisie on the basis t…

> The relevance of class distinctions which place Uber drivers (whose income is derived from applying labour to their own capital) in a higher economic class than doctors or SV programmers (who haven't exercised their options) is pretty minimal

The classical economic classes are misleading when viewed as an inherent heirarchy (in pure capitalism, they might be -- at least, capitalists are definitively at the top -- but that is a feature for which pure capitalism has been criticized.)

The classes, instead, represent commonality of interest from common manner of relating to the economy (income level is also a source of potential common interest, but it is distinct from, though correlated with, class.)

And I think there is plenty of room to debate whether Uber drivers are genuinely primarily applying labor to their own capital, or whether the key, predominant, a d essential capital is that provided by Uber.

Re: ‘Routine’ Jobs Are Disappearing

#142

Post by jdmichal »

tptacek wrote: post #70
dllthomas wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My brother recently finished nursing school. The number of times he got the question, "you're gonna be a male nurse?" ... He had a number of cute responses.

The prejudice and stereotyping here is ridiculous, but honestly, I think something that needs to happen (for a variety of reasons) is for the term "nurse" to be retired, and replaced with something like "medical associate". The nursing profession is extraordinarily important, and we underutilize it in this country. Most of us should be talking to "nurses" much more frequently than we do, and much more often than we t…

I agree with the idea that utilizing highly-trained physicians for basic health care is a misallocation of resources. Nurse practitioners and physician associates [0] should and have been receiving more autonomy in providing basic care. They have enough training to do so, and should be capable of recognizing when a referral is required.

[0] Also known as "physician assistant", which is a terrible name when making a case for autonomy...

Re: ‘Routine’ Jobs Are Disappearing

#143

Post by [deleted] »

uiri wrote: post #113
Ensorceled wrote: post #65

There are a fair number of comments dismissing this issue with a "retrain or get left behind" and expressing not a lot of sympathy for those who don't. Remember, the average IQ in the US is just below 100[1]. Exactly what kind of jobs do you expect to retrain these people for? And how are they equipped to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps? Most of these jobs provided on the job training or apprenticeships so…

the average IQ in the US is just below 100 This represents a fundamental misunderstanding of IQ as a measurement. IQ is defined as a normal distribution with a median of 100 and a standard deviation of 15. The average IQ in the US is 100 for any IQ test calibrated to measure the US population. No absolute statements regarding intelligence can be made on the basis of IQs; only relative statements about how an individu…

[deleted]

Re: ‘Routine’ Jobs Are Disappearing

#144

Post by DashRattlesnake »

VLM wrote: post #74
metaphorm wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

elder-care cannot possibly be a solid basis for the economy. they are not in their working years and are not (on the average) contributing positive sums to GDP or tax revenue. there is a humanitarian case to be made for improved quality of life for elderly people, but I can't imagine that there is a reasonable economic case to be made for it, unless you're arguing that the elder-care industry is just an elaborate sub…

Consider even more traditional methods of elder care such as apprenticeships and village elders. It is rather mysterious how we take kids in prime physical shape and mush for brains and lock them into ignorant echo chambers for years while we take wise and skilled old people with worn out bodies and brains full of very expensive experience and lock them into lonely old folks homes next door and then make sure they ne…

> It is rather mysterious how we take kids in prime physical shape and mush for brains and lock them into ignorant echo chambers for years while we take wise and skilled old people with worn out bodies and brains full of very expensive experience and lock them into lonely old folks homes next door and then make sure they never mix. Its almost like our culture is so stupidly designed someone is trying to sabotage it.

It's really a failure to think holistically. When you break a problem down and over-specialize, you can turn a solution into two or more problems. I'm reminded of something I read about farming: traditionally livestock production and farming were done on the same farm. The livestock ate healthier and could be of higher quality, and their manure fertilized the soil for the crops. They were separated in the name of specialization and efficiency, and that created problems of agricultural mono-cultures, unhealthy livestock, fertilizer runoff, and the disposal of concentrated livestock waste from factory farms.

Re: ‘Routine’ Jobs Are Disappearing

#145

Post by maverick_iceman »

metaphorm wrote: post #85
tptacek wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was the "logic" I took from that comment too, but it still doesn't make any sense. We spend money on all sorts of things that don't "contribute" (in this weird, narrow sense) to the economy. But of course, most things we spend money on do in fact contribute to the economy: the money goes into the pockets of the people providing the service, who go on to buy things with that money and fuel the economy. That's wha…

I'll ask you, then, to focus less on the GDP/value-add side of the argument and more on the "spiritually corrosive to individuals and society" side of the argument.

"spiritually corrosive to individuals and society" seems less of a fact and more of a narrow personal opinion. I personally don't consider caring for the elderly as a corrosive/demeaning job.

Re: ‘Routine’ Jobs Are Disappearing

#146

Post by metaphorm »

beguiledfoil wrote: post #108
metaphorm wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

elder-care cannot possibly be a solid basis for the economy. they are not in their working years and are not (on the average) contributing positive sums to GDP or tax revenue. there is a humanitarian case to be made for improved quality of life for elderly people, but I can't imagine that there is a reasonable economic case to be made for it, unless you're arguing that the elder-care industry is just an elaborate sub…

>but I can't imagine that there is a reasonable economic case to be made for it Median net worth of a retiree is $210,000. Many have saved for care in retirement and therefore will be able to 'demand' it in the market. And I don't believe that includes income from Social Security (which is just a forced savings plan). >It seems to me that what is needed is alternative industries that are booming because they create n…

word soup would be a sentence that doesn't even parse. you're misusing the term in an effort to beat me down with the force of your snark. cut it out.

do I actually need to explain it to you? I will anyway, in word sandwiches, since you might prefer that instead of soup.

Re-training assembly line workers to be barristas, mall parking lot attendants, and elder-care nurses is not an acceptable outcome. There is increased demand for positions like that in our economy but that is indicative of economic dysfunction, not economic health. Some industries are declining (in terms of labor force participation) because of off-shoring and automation. Those industries are benefiting in profitability from the reduction of their labor costs but the laborers being displaced are not receiving those benefits. New industries that can offer work for displaced laborers are needed. Ideally, those industries are _generative_. That means they are primarily involved in production (of raw materials, of manufactured goods, of energy).

Re: ‘Routine’ Jobs Are Disappearing

#148

Post by kwhitefoot »

tptacek wrote: post #70
dllthomas wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My brother recently finished nursing school. The number of times he got the question, "you're gonna be a male nurse?" ... He had a number of cute responses.

The prejudice and stereotyping here is ridiculous, but honestly, I think something that needs to happen (for a variety of reasons) is for the term "nurse" to be retired, and replaced with something like "medical associate". The nursing profession is extraordinarily important, and we underutilize it in this country. Most of us should be talking to "nurses" much more frequently than we do, and much more often than we t…

What's wrong with nurse? It has a quite specific meaning. Changing it medical associate just makes it less precise. What's needed is for sexism to be eradicated everywhere; changing the names is not going to do that.

Re: ‘Routine’ Jobs Are Disappearing

#149

Post by Hydraulix989 »

hamandcheese wrote: post #140
uiri wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the average IQ in the US is just below 100 This represents a fundamental misunderstanding of IQ as a measurement. IQ is defined as a normal distribution with a median of 100 and a standard deviation of 15. The average IQ in the US is 100 for any IQ test calibrated to measure the US population. No absolute statements regarding intelligence can be made on the basis of IQs; only relative statements about how an individu…

It's meaningful in this context, since, chances are, those commenting here have a much higher IQ than 100.

Which was a point implied by the OP that still stands.

Re: ‘Routine’ Jobs Are Disappearing

#150

Post by VLM »

tajen wrote: post #90
ProAm wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What good is a planet when you cant afford to live on it? (/s sort of)

I like your sentence, it's a philosophical study which requires an economics analysis. If we take the hypothesis that we can't afford living here because we're limited by artificial abnormalities, like the wealth being abnormally concentrated, then wouldn't the rich actually employ those people (under various forms, like purchasing more goods/houses, directly hiring servants, making use of hotels/restaurants, etc) ?…

Your analysis is good but static. There is a bigger dynamic problem where your economic system relies on eternal compounded growth and anything less will result in utter collapse. The planet is a fixed size. Therefore the only question is when is the collapse, not if they'll be one.

A side issue is recent history over the past couple centuries has revolved around replacing old forms of energy with new ones orders of magnitude cheaper. So far its worked out well. Because we haven't collapsed yet isn't a justification for it always working in the future. And now we're pretty well done with oil and coal with nothing to replace them, certainly not something orders of magnitude better to continue the trend of growth.

Another interesting exponential is the economy seems to do better with exponential growth in native population. Those aren't growing because economic conditions are awful. That leads to even worse economic conditions, leading to even lower population birth rates...

Post reply on HN