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Forget Survival of the Fittest: It Is Kindness That Counts (2009)

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Re: Forget Survival of the Fittest: It Is Kindness That Counts (2009)

#81
post #32

When I was working on evolutionary dynamics in the late 90s, a group of us from across the world were trying to build an evolutionary model that showed the emergence of altruistic behaviour. It was really really difficult. Even knowing exactly the kind of behaviour we wanted to show, it wasn't trivial to stack the dice enough to roll that outcome. I have since read a lot of arguments, a lot of post-hoc reasoning that…

> When I was working on evolutionary dynamics in the late 90s, a group of us from across the world were trying to build an evolutionary model that showed the emergence of altruistic behaviour. OK, math. There are 200 people in Group A. Each has the choice of taking 1 point for themselves or giving 2 points to the group. If everyone gives 2 points then everyone gets 2 points. If everyone keeps the 1 point then no one…

But in this arrangement there is no reason for an individual need more points. You inserted your own assumption that "more imaginary points is better for itself" to define altruism.

Maybe an additional rule where the 20% with less points of the population of the groups with more points also dies. So there is actually an incentive for the individual that keep the points.

Re: Forget Survival of the Fittest: It Is Kindness That Counts (2009)

#82
post #32

When I was working on evolutionary dynamics in the late 90s, a group of us from across the world were trying to build an evolutionary model that showed the emergence of altruistic behaviour. It was really really difficult. Even knowing exactly the kind of behaviour we wanted to show, it wasn't trivial to stack the dice enough to roll that outcome. I have since read a lot of arguments, a lot of post-hoc reasoning that…

Axelrod?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Evolution_of_Cooperation#A...

Re: Forget Survival of the Fittest: It Is Kindness That Counts (2009)

#83
post #77
post #32

When I was working on evolutionary dynamics in the late 90s, a group of us from across the world were trying to build an evolutionary model that showed the emergence of altruistic behaviour. It was really really difficult. Even knowing exactly the kind of behaviour we wanted to show, it wasn't trivial to stack the dice enough to roll that outcome. I have since read a lot of arguments, a lot of post-hoc reasoning that…

> Show me the math. Imagine a game you play with someone where you have 40 units and you need to divide it between the two of you. The other person has the choice of accepting the deal or refusing the deal. If they refuse, both of you get nothing. How do you divide the 40 units so that the other person accepts the deal? Naive economics points that even if you offer the other only 1 unit, the other should take it beca…

You're essentially saying that "bread and circuses" counts as an altruistic action. If you're expecting a payout, isn't that by definition not altruism?

Re: Forget Survival of the Fittest: It Is Kindness That Counts (2009)

#84
post #55
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good example but in most real world cases choice will be to keep one point to themselves and give away between zero to one point to the group out of that one point. Now selfish behaviour kicks in as every individual wants to give as little as possible. But survivial of the group becomes crucial in face of an adversory. In that case everyone will contribute towards maximising group's strength. So in my understanding n…

But can it still be called altruism? Imho, helping out the group to preserve yourself disqualifies it as such; the selfish aspect is clearly there.

just as ascribing intentions to evolution is frowned upon, the evolutionary successful behaviour doesn't have to be intentional, does it? This's no direct dispproval of the selfishnes, however, just semantics.

Re: Forget Survival of the Fittest: It Is Kindness That Counts (2009)

#85
post #32

When I was working on evolutionary dynamics in the late 90s, a group of us from across the world were trying to build an evolutionary model that showed the emergence of altruistic behaviour. It was really really difficult. Even knowing exactly the kind of behaviour we wanted to show, it wasn't trivial to stack the dice enough to roll that outcome. I have since read a lot of arguments, a lot of post-hoc reasoning that…

I agree that there are doubts about some of the models, e.g. evolutionary game theory is not a model of evolution. My problem with these kinds of evolutionary arguments is different, though.

It seems to me that their interpreters often assume that identifying some behavior as evolutionary advantageous to an individual or group is somehow correlated with the goodness or desirability of that behavior. That's a fallacy. Whether the behavior is commendable, good, desirable, etc. is not related to its capability of increasing the long-term survival and spreading of someone's genes. (I'm not claiming everyone makes this association, but some seem to make it.)

Moreover, there seem to be countless examples of behavior that we are perfectly capable of and whose effect is difficult if not impossible to explain with evolutionary arguments. Some of them are considered commendable, other not. Random examples:

- spending your life in almost solitary confinement to solve some math problem

- deciding not to have children

- waging wars

- not passing your wealth on to your useless son and instead give everything to a charity

- being gay or asexual

- writing a novel without getting paid for it and that also doesn't increase your mating chances

The list could go on and on. Of course, evolutionary explanations may be constructed for any of them, but it's kind of doubtful that all human activities fit into this scheme. So my two points are:

a.) Whether altruistic behavior is good/desirable or not has nothing to do with its contribution to evolutionary fitness.

b.) Within some limits, we are perfectly capable of behaving in ways that are not evolutionary advantageous to us.

Finally, evolutionary models of social behavior that are not based on the genetic transmission of behavior simply do not have anything to do with real evolution. I've often seen real evolution being deliberately mixed up with ideas about the spreading on information contained in books, web pages, speech, etc. but I fail to see how the spreading of this information could be even remotely related to the way genes spread. Once you hear about a social fitness function or the fitness of a meme, you can in my opinion safely assume that the author pulled that concept out of his ass or copied it from others who did so.

Re: Forget Survival of the Fittest: It Is Kindness That Counts (2009)

#86
post #6

In 'The God Delusion' Richard Dawkins mentions a few ways altruism and compassion etc could've evolved in humans (by way of selfish genes). I remember one fascinating example about Arabian babblers which use altruism to assert dominance. They seek out increasingly dangerous positions to alert the herd of potential predetors. And by feeding others as a way to say 'look at me I am so superior to you I can afford to fee…

there's an excellent blog post i read recently that builds on the model of arabian babblers to describe how altruistic 'prestige economies' can evolve from self-interested motives in really compelling way: http://www.meltingasphalt.com/social-status-down-the-rabbit-...

(a bit long, but very worth it)

Re: Forget Survival of the Fittest: It Is Kindness That Counts (2009)

#87
post #32

When I was working on evolutionary dynamics in the late 90s, a group of us from across the world were trying to build an evolutionary model that showed the emergence of altruistic behaviour. It was really really difficult. Even knowing exactly the kind of behaviour we wanted to show, it wasn't trivial to stack the dice enough to roll that outcome. I have since read a lot of arguments, a lot of post-hoc reasoning that…

I agree that there are doubts about some of the models, e.g. evolutionary game theory is not a model of evolution. My problem with these kinds of evolutionary arguments is different, though. It seems to me that their interpreters often assume that identifying some behavior as evolutionary advantageous to an individual or group is somehow correlated with the goodness or desirability of that behavior. That's a fallacy.…

No, I think this is wrong.

Behaviours that groups exhibit will definitely be passed on from individual to individual and definitely have an effect on the ability of the group to survive.

And - whether something is passed on socially or through genes, it doesn't matter. 'Evolution' is not just a function of genes, obviously.

Your list of 'behaviours' is easy to describe, and I'll do it in context of your 'a' and 'b' positions.

From 'b' - "we are perfectly capable of behaving in ways that are not evolutionary advantageous to us" - obviously. But who cares? The species that takes up the best behaviours for it's environment will persist beyond those that do not.

From 'a' - Whether altruistic behavior is good/desirable or not has nothing to do with its contribution to evolutionary fitness. Yes it does. Run a little evolutionary simulation a a computer program. Create little 'bits' that evolve over time, and interact with one another - you'll see the bugs with the best social behaviours win - the others dissapear.

- " spending your life in almost solitary confinement to solve some math problem"

First off - this did not happen until way, way into human social development. Once we have complex social functions, it makes evolutionary sense to allocate some members of society towards 'very long term' thinking. 'The guy in the cave' is the same thing as a PhD today: someone who'd dedicated their life to something probably trivial or irrelevant, but which may have huge impact, possibly in the future.

- 'war' - war is perfectly understandable as selfish behaviour in the short run: a social group can 'get ahead' quickly by taking stuff of others.

- 'not passing on stuff to kids'. From a social perspective, it doesn't matter that much if the money goes to one's kids, or the neighbors kids. Both will contribute to group survival.

"I've often seen real evolution being deliberately mixed up with ideas about the spreading on information contained in books, web pages, speech, etc. but I fail to see how the spreading of this information could be even remotely related to the way genes spread"

It's very simple: an organism that learns how to read and write, and to pass down it's knowledge from generation to generation will 'out survive' ones that don't - and their genes are much more likely to be passed on.

Re: Forget Survival of the Fittest: It Is Kindness That Counts (2009)

#88
post #32

When I was working on evolutionary dynamics in the late 90s, a group of us from across the world were trying to build an evolutionary model that showed the emergence of altruistic behaviour. It was really really difficult. Even knowing exactly the kind of behaviour we wanted to show, it wasn't trivial to stack the dice enough to roll that outcome. I have since read a lot of arguments, a lot of post-hoc reasoning that…

What about Nash equilibria? People here may well have asked this already in a different way; I haven't checked all the questions to see if they actually are describing Nash equilibria.

Re: Forget Survival of the Fittest: It Is Kindness That Counts (2009)

#90
In modern society, this is so obvious that it seems not worth writing about. Most successful people I know are kind and considerate while people I have known who are not so successful in life tend to not consider other people. OK, I am making a generalization, but one that is usually true.
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