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Adding up the cost of uncontrolled immigration

theamericanconservative.com

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Re: Adding up the cost of uncontrolled immigration

#21

Post by omegaworks »

tomcam wrote: post #7

Thank you, HN peeps. Nice to see the loyal opposition appear on HN once in a while. I accept the site's left-of-center leanings, but it's heartwarming to see a different perspective hit the front page every so often. Speaks well of the mods and audience here.

>the site's left-of-center leanings

I find HN to be one of the more moderate, centrist, pro-business places I get my news. There are vocal left-of-center members, but I'd hardly call it a left-of-center place. We clearly want to create an environment where entrepreneurialism and technology work to make the world a better place, and admire successful people and companies that make that a reality.

Re: Adding up the cost of uncontrolled immigration

#22

Post by omegaworks »

The article tries to paint both sides as adversarial and politically entrenched when clearly the researchers themselves (when quoted) want to focus on the data and the realities on the ground. I'm glad that it touches upon the fact that immigration policy is more complicated and nuanced then it first seems, with emergent behaviors that are reflected in more then just falling wages.

>Borjas suggests requiring employers to use the E-Verify system to ensure their workers aren’t in the country illegally, and otherwise supports a period of “benign neglect” toward those already here: no deportation, but no amnesty either, at least until the enforcement-first strategy proves successful.

I think a huge gap in the article is the write-off of labor rights under this kind of "benign neglect" system. A policy that creates a second-tier system naturally depresses wages for both immigrant and citizen laborers. If "benign neglect" means that basic standards for workplace safety and the right to assemble are not recognized and protected by the government, employers can use this to perform wage arbitrage.

Re: Adding up the cost of uncontrolled immigration

#23

Post by coldtea »

chillacy wrote: post #2

It seems like an obvious result of the law of supply & demand that immigration will drive the price of labor down for jobs which those immigrants do: more (un-unionized) labor = lower wages.

Yes, but the average commenter on the site (or anybody middle class and above) will rarely be impacted negatively by this, and if anything they'll have some benefits from the cheaper low-skill labor available to them (e.g. for their companies, construction, services, etc).

As for the low-skill working class people affected, the general sentiment is screw them. Or BS jokes like "if an immigrant that doesn't even speak the language can take your job, you didn't deserve it in the first place" (as if all jobs are dependent on verbal skills, e.g. mining, cleaning, gardening, construction work, etc).

In the same vein, if visas for developers counted in the millions, there would be riots all over Silicon Valley, and angry letters to politicians...

Re: Adding up the cost of uncontrolled immigration

#24

Post by coldtea »

bayesian_horse wrote: post #16
chillacy wrote: post #2

It seems like an obvious result of the law of supply & demand that immigration will drive the price of labor down for jobs which those immigrants do: more (un-unionized) labor = lower wages.

This simplified notion of "Supply and demand" does not work with immigration and labor. The obvious solution to your problem of lower wages would be to legalize illegal immigrants to give them equal rights and empower them to seek higher wages.

This wouldn't work either, because the majority of immigrants will still be unskilled, not speaking the language well etc, starting as dirt poor and having to work hand to mouth, and thus unable to "seek higher wages" for other reasons too aside from their illegal status.

Re: Adding up the cost of uncontrolled immigration

#25

Post by Smutte »

woodruffw wrote: post #19

Sure, let's add up the cost. What is the cost of a human life? What is the cost of the welfare of children whose only crime is following their parents across a border? I don't pose these questions to signal virtue, but to point out the absurdity of assigning something like a cost function to something as natural as wanting a better life for oneself or one's children. It might very well be true that "uncontrolled" imm…

Depending on how and where you spend it, its about $7500 or more to save a life.

http://www.givewell.org/giving101/Your-dollar-goes-further-o...

Re: Adding up the cost of uncontrolled immigration

#26

Post by woodruffw »

Smutte wrote: post #25
woodruffw wrote: post #19

Sure, let's add up the cost. What is the cost of a human life? What is the cost of the welfare of children whose only crime is following their parents across a border? I don't pose these questions to signal virtue, but to point out the absurdity of assigning something like a cost function to something as natural as wanting a better life for oneself or one's children. It might very well be true that "uncontrolled" imm…

Depending on how and where you spend it, its about $7500 or more to save a life. http://www.givewell.org/giving101/Your-dollar-goes-further-o...

But is that life worth $7500? More seriously, is a life that costs more to save more valuable?

I think the answer to both of these is an unqualified 'no.'

Re: Adding up the cost of uncontrolled immigration

#27

Post by Smutte »

woodruffw wrote: post #26
Smutte wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depending on how and where you spend it, its about $7500 or more to save a life. http://www.givewell.org/giving101/Your-dollar-goes-further-o...

But is that life worth $7500? More seriously, is a life that costs more to save more valuable? I think the answer to both of these is an unqualified 'no.'

A life is a life. If one life costs 7500 to save and another costs 15000 they are both still lives if you ask me. Should you spend 15000 to save one life or 7500*2 to save 2? If the one that costs 15000 is your child? Thats complicated of course. But the numbers arent really. Again, 7500 or more. As long as you have resources to share you can choose which life to save (or if you want to spend it on a computer and time on HN and let them all perish).

Re: Adding up the cost of uncontrolled immigration

#28

Post by mikekchar »

ec109685 wrote: post #17
mikekchar wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The average cost per student in public school is $10,615 per year alone That number surprises me. If you think that the loaded labour rate of a teacher is probably $100K, that gives you a teacher to student ratio of 1:10. Since the ratio is more like 1:30 or 1:40, that means that 65-75% of the cost of education is something other than teachers' salaries. I've got to think that's an indication that something is very…

Average class size is way less than 30 to 40: https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/sass/tables/sass1112_2013314_t1s...

Hmm... Very interesting. Much different than the class sizes I remember from my one and only year of education in the US. Also, very nice if true.

I can't quite understand the data, though. In the description for self-contained and departmentalised the percentages don't even come close to adding up to 100%. Are there other styles of teaching whose data is not represented on this chart?

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