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Why do traders in investment banks feel their jobs are immune from AI, etc?

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Re: Why do traders in investment banks feel their jobs are immune from AI, etc?

#181
Some vocabulary might be helpful here, generally there a few buckets most traders can be put into:

1. Proprietary trading (think hedge funds or the old bank prop desks, ranges from the bass brothers to renaissance tech in terms of style)

2. Execution or sales traders (often work for or are the counterparts to #1, their goal is get the best price for their clients in the quantities and time frames desired)

3. Market making (essentially providing liquidity to both buyers and sellers)

4. Sales - essentially layered on top of 2 & 3 to interact with 1

With that said, #3 has pretty much been automated in some markets and is the easiest to automate, #2 has had a lot of automation for vanilla stuff, but people are still involved in big, complicated things. #1 may be automated but is largely strategy dependent, #4 is pretty hard to automate...

Re: Why do traders in investment banks feel their jobs are immune from AI, etc?

#182
post #162

A lot of traders are losing their jobs, and many fear this. As other mention, though, Wall Street makes a lot of money trading the edge cases. For instance, many people thought derivatives traders would become obsolete when the Black Scholes formula arrived. In reality, the model grew the size of the derivatives market, and traders made money knowing where the model was wrong. (Example: It assumes constant volatility…

> Perhaps the best analogy is a chess expert paired with a computer can beat either the computer or the expert alone. This has stopped being true for a number of years. Computers play chess so much better now, that a human will actually impede it. Think this way: could a 12 year old (the human) help a math graduate (the computer) on some problem? Or more likely he will just be a distraction? More elaborations on this…

Kasparov seems to be of a different opinion[0], telling that machine + computer combination is still more powerful

[0] https://youtu.be/fiyBJeNBIIA?t=1h27m36s

Re: Why do traders in investment banks feel their jobs are immune from AI, etc?

#183
post #116

because traders are used to seeing such predictions fail. Reuters was trading FX electronically since the early 1990s. At the tier one IB I worked for the IT budget was 500m USD a year (across products), and that was in 1997! Huge resources were thrown at automation. However, to this day, large trades in FX (> 10m USD notional) are still almost exclusively performed by humans over a telephone or over the bloomberg me…

> because traders are used to seeing such predictions fail. There was a joke from the 80s: soon the whole trading floor will be replaced by a computer, a man and a dog. The man presses the button to turn on the computer every morning. The computer operates all of the transactions and settlements automatically. And the dog is there to bite the man if he touches any other button. 30 years later, still no dog on the flo…

This is a paraphrase of a semi-well-known quote from a respected business professor named Warren Bennis, about the "factory of the future" - who knows whether he coined it or adapted it from a common joke though. Here's his version of the quote, which I like a bit more:

The factory of the future will have only two employees, a man and a dog. The man will be there to feed the dog. The dog will be there to keep the man from touching the equipment.

Re: Why do traders in investment banks feel their jobs are immune from AI, etc?

#184

Some vocabulary might be helpful here, generally there a few buckets most traders can be put into: 1. Proprietary trading (think hedge funds or the old bank prop desks, ranges from the bass brothers to renaissance tech in terms of style) 2. Execution or sales traders (often work for or are the counterparts to #1, their goal is get the best price for their clients in the quantities and time frames desired) 3. Market m…

[deleted]

Re: Why do traders in investment banks feel their jobs are immune from AI, etc?

#185
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. In casinos the games are designed so that in the long run the house always wins. They don't need to care about odds. The stock market isn't a game; it isn't designed and it continuously evolves.

> In casinos the games are designed so that in the long run the house always wins. That's exactly what I meant by odds; they always win because the odds of the games are in their favor. > The stock market isn't a game It's a game in the same sense that life itself is a game. > it isn't designed The mechanisms that fit all the pieces together are very much designed by humans. True the behavior of the market isn't desi…

>It's a game in the same sense that life itself is a game.

Life isn't a game.

Re: Why do traders in investment banks feel their jobs are immune from AI, etc?

#186
post #162

A lot of traders are losing their jobs, and many fear this. As other mention, though, Wall Street makes a lot of money trading the edge cases. For instance, many people thought derivatives traders would become obsolete when the Black Scholes formula arrived. In reality, the model grew the size of the derivatives market, and traders made money knowing where the model was wrong. (Example: It assumes constant volatility…

> Perhaps the best analogy is a chess expert paired with a computer can beat either the computer or the expert alone. This has stopped being true for a number of years. Computers play chess so much better now, that a human will actually impede it. Think this way: could a 12 year old (the human) help a math graduate (the computer) on some problem? Or more likely he will just be a distraction? More elaborations on this…

A better analogy would be computer-assisted poker. The computer can keep track of the cards and provide probabilities, while the human provides the social computations (figuring out exploits by modelling the opponent's mental state). Computers have been very successful at pure optimization problems like chess, but still lag behind on games of assymetrical information.

The stock market is more like poker than like chess, because it is the correct application of theory of mind (Can a computer bluff? Can a computer cheat?) that elevates it above a game of chance.

Re: Why do traders in investment banks feel their jobs are immune from AI, etc?

#187
post #155

If traders have managed to persuade people that they are able to beat the market against all evidence[1], why would they not be able to convince people that they are better than AI? [1] Of course, there are anecdotal evidence of the opposite, but there should be those if the performance of a trader is a random process.

Do you consider several hedge funds consistently beating the market with significant margins for over 20 years to be "anecdotal" evidence? The evidence shows that it is very difficult for traders to consistently beat the market. The evidence does not show that their performance, as a profession, is random.

Yes, I consider them anecdotal. If you have a billion people flipping coins, a few are for sure getting 20 tails in row, but that is no evidence that they would be better coin flippers than the others.

> The evidence does not show that their performance, as a profession, is random.

I think you are right, if I recall correctly, the evidence points to a conclusion that the performance of their profession is worse than random when you take fees into account...

Re: Why do traders in investment banks feel their jobs are immune from AI, etc?

#188
This post will get buried in this discussion, but I actually worked for a HFT company trying to break into all sort of algorithmic trading (and made a small fortune doing so).

The topic question is:

1. Loaded question

2. Uninformed question, look at a small subset of the electronic trading reality.

3. Overly broad: jobs are immune from AI, etc (what? depression? ancient aliens?)

So, in order:

1. Some traders will always get fired as they can't do their jobs (or are just plain unlucky in the wrong time).

2. The 'traders', or rather what people think of a 'trader' is a wrong image in what I worked with. They were people configuring algorithms, linking dependencies between tickers in various market segments, etc. These traders did some rudimentary AI guiding of a sort. They used their brains, read newspapers, tried to code engines to parse said newspapers with machine learning long before it became media catchphrase, failed (badly), configured various triggers. They weren't 'traders' in your ordinary sense of the word, but struggled to make that work. It takes a lot more in scope, than buy low sell high' to make trading work in this millennia. Several magnitudes or more work, if I'm to scope it. It's a corporate effort, not a singular one. Traders do get fired but whole corporations go under also.

3. The 'etc' part:

- AI will never advance to the level to predict the future, as it will not know the sum of human experiences driving that future. This is especially true for the financial market as it is linked with the rest of all human activities in a un-linkable fashion. I can take this as a philosophy thought experiment, or as an economy fact, or from my limited experience, but, take it as you will, AI is a 2017 buzzword to come. Take it with a grain of 100 shares worth of salt.

- There is a very finite liquidity in the market, compared to the money available. When you have to iceberg orders to not destroy a trading strategy and move the gap for everybody, it's really obvious that the money you can make are limited. This was true in 2010, when most of the major banks decided to also enter, and is more true today. So, connected with the previous point. AI will never be fast enough, to earn on the limited liquidity compared to available players, considering we are capping off in silicon CPU processing power right now. I'm open to arguing this point, as it was argued to death among friends in the last decade, but I don't see this moving in any direction unless processing power moves off silicon, and even then, for a while. You can't scale atoms, and you still need 80 of them (or whatever is the latest) for building anything, so that's the hard wall. [extra thoughts] Given all of the above, humans have an edge, and humans with experience, have a sharper edge than the AI. In trading, nothing will change, and AI wont replace traders. We can argue this point, feel free to reply.

---

[extra thoughts] Purely my take on this, as future trends:

Javascript as popular web language will get capped off on performance soon (few years?). Thus, as demand increases one of these will happen (or all three of them):

- Javascript will get threads, locks, and the rest of the circus and Javascript programmers will have to learn a lot more on top of what they know (in a language not quite friendly for writing threaded code in the first place) and it will be super fun to be one for a while.

- A new language will emerge to replace the web languages and get more performance by simplifying the interaction with he browsers (Think CICS + IBM + inline assembly there)

- The JavaScript+Browser Layers+OS+VM approach will get replaced with something more lean in the next 5-10 years because people will want more (whatever more is, nobody predicted it 100% so far).

Anyways, this post got unintentionally too long, I guess I had something to say on the subject :)

Re: Why do traders in investment banks feel their jobs are immune from AI, etc?

#189
post #116

because traders are used to seeing such predictions fail. Reuters was trading FX electronically since the early 1990s. At the tier one IB I worked for the IT budget was 500m USD a year (across products), and that was in 1997! Huge resources were thrown at automation. However, to this day, large trades in FX (> 10m USD notional) are still almost exclusively performed by humans over a telephone or over the bloomberg me…

> because traders are used to seeing such predictions fail. There was a joke from the 80s: soon the whole trading floor will be replaced by a computer, a man and a dog. The man presses the button to turn on the computer every morning. The computer operates all of the transactions and settlements automatically. And the dog is there to bite the man if he touches any other button. 30 years later, still no dog on the flo…

The NYSE floor traders are only there for window dressing to be seen by the TV cameras. They are entirely redundant and watch movies for much of the day when there is no need to show a flurry of activity after opening or before closing. The entire building is no longer of any real importance.

Re: Why do traders in investment banks feel their jobs are immune from AI, etc?

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found my apartment online. Set up the meeting. Negotiated the documents and corrected them where necessary. The broker I paid 10% of my first year's rent? Apparently he bought a ticket to Paris the morning of our closing.

If you negotiated the documents yourselves, why were any broker involved ?

> If you negotiated the documents yourselves, why were any broker involved ?

It's a scamola with a similar racket being Ticketmaster's "convenience fees". Most apartments in NYC will require going through their broker who collects a fee (usually a percentage of the first years rent). A chunk of that fee ends up being a kickback to the owner of the apartment. Ticketmaster does the same thing with venues (tack on $15 fee, give the venue $7.50).

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