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Why do traders in investment banks feel their jobs are immune from AI, etc?

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Re: Why do traders in investment banks feel their jobs are immune from AI, etc?

#151
A lot of traders are losing their jobs, and many fear this.

As other mention, though, Wall Street makes a lot of money trading the edge cases. For instance, many people thought derivatives traders would become obsolete when the Black Scholes formula arrived. In reality, the model grew the size of the derivatives market, and traders made money knowing where the model was wrong. (Example: It assumes constant volatility)

Similarly, many investors use an OAS (Option Adjusted Spread) model to justify prices on one-off Mortgage Backed Securities. This also helps grow the market, as there's more transparent pricing. But traders know where the models are wrong, and make money off of them.

When technology enabled FX trade spreads to be less than a penny, people thought traders were done. But this increased the volume of trading (more hedging became cost-efficient) so while the % skimmed by traders decreased, the absolute $s increased.

Net, as long as the financial pie grows, traders can find ways to siphon money off. That amount may grow or shrink, but generally the story is more technology has helped them.

Perhaps the best analogy is a chess expert paired with a computer can beat either the computer or the expert alone.

Re: Why do traders in investment banks feel their jobs are immune from AI, etc?

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are the rules for image / video captioning? For natural sounding speech synthesis? For realistic image generation? For semantic segmentation? For determining perceptual visual similarity between images? Frankly, rules based AI is basically a bust compared to learning from data approaches. The hive was pretty amazing at destabilizing the entire global economy within a brief span following fundamental financial de…

Automatic image and video captioning is in a very sorry state. Machines can't do it. Machine learning is rule based. The difference is just that it creates many more rules for more and more granular cases. But it will never be intelligent, it will always be a dumb digital bureaucrat.

> Automatic image and video captioning is in a very sorry state. Machines can't do it.

You may have missed various dramatic improvements over the past year:

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?as_ylo=2016&q=%22image+ca...

Re: Why do traders in investment banks feel their jobs are immune from AI, etc?

#153
post #60

> "Would you trust purchasing a house from a seller, without meeting/talking to them, or a single person before and throughout the purchase?" You mean I can get an unbiased look at a house in peace, compare the numbers, look at the plans, measure the humidity and do my due diligence without a sales person breathing down my neck? Hell yea. I'd pay premium for that.

> > > "Would you trust purchasing a house from a seller, without meeting/talking to them, or a single person before and throughout the purchase?" > You mean I can get an unbiased look at a house in peace, compare the numbers, look at the plans, measure the humidity and do my due diligence without a sales person breathing down my neck? No, I don't think anyone means that. They mean purchase the house. You can't go int…

For a decade now, I can't figure out why we still bother with Realtors. It's basically eight courses, and an easy test. Oh, and the experience. Don't get me started.

It's the biggest purchase most of us will make, so I understand the need for hand holding, but times have changed. The typical buyer is educated, and in all likelyhood knows about as much as the typical ex-cheerleader Realtor.

I thought the profession would be gone by now. It is ripe for elimination.

The only reason I would use a realtor is out of convention. And believe me, I would want to see a fresh copy of their omissions & errors insurance premium. (Need someone to sue, but that could easily be the Seller if they lied.)

Sorry if I sound bitter. I just don't get giving away 3% on huge amounts of money for essentially hand holding.

(In CA, the Realtors Lobbyists tried to cut down on new Brokers by making the Brokers licence harder to obtain. Gov. Schwartzeneger saw right through the ploy, and vetoed the bill. He knew they just wanted to decrease the amount of Brokers, so the Cheerleaders would have less competition. Gov. Brown let the bill ride right through. All of you should remember that when paying thousands of dollars (full commission) for a few hours of a Realtors time. When that bill passed, I became an Independant.)

Re: Why do traders in investment banks feel their jobs are immune from AI, etc?

#154
post #146

A good trader can explain their trades, a good AI cannot yet . This is important in many financial settings when some human must still be personally responsible for the trades. For a manager it is much easier to approve regression coefficients or a particular trading formula than to sign a neural network into production.

> A good trader can explain their trades

Yeah, but what are the odds that their explanation is just a post-hoc rationalization (ie. "heads I get credit, tails I avoid blame")?

Re: Why do traders in investment banks feel their jobs are immune from AI, etc?

#155

If traders have managed to persuade people that they are able to beat the market against all evidence[1], why would they not be able to convince people that they are better than AI? [1] Of course, there are anecdotal evidence of the opposite, but there should be those if the performance of a trader is a random process.

Do you consider several hedge funds consistently beating the market with significant margins for over 20 years to be "anecdotal" evidence?

The evidence shows that it is very difficult for traders to consistently beat the market. The evidence does not show that their performance, as a profession, is random.

Re: Why do traders in investment banks feel their jobs are immune from AI, etc?

#156
Famous last words for a lot of businesses:

>When it comes to AI/Machine Learning: the nature of ____ and markets are drastically different to other fields that AI/ML have previously excelled in. The main reason being what are the laws and rules that govern how an AI/ML should view a field?

>Since the very nature of a market is… a constant change respecting an infinite and broad amount of variables (____), a complex system (repeating exact past actions, will not give you the same results) and a social interaction/conflict regarding an ambiguous ____, it becomes incredibly difficult to determine those laws and rules.

>In physics, mathematics, computer programming, you will always have a safe level of predictability when it comes to certain functions and how they interact to give you a reliable solution. With ____, instead of this safe level, there is just irrationality beliefs; something you cannot model with accurate certainty (just look at how AI/ML would handle predictions for Brexit and Trump, and then, how it would cope with the aftermath).

Re: Why do traders in investment banks feel their jobs are immune from AI, etc?

#157
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the idea that you can predict the future is absurd. And even if you could, acting on that knowledge would change the future.

The nuances of the game are different from strictly trying to predict the future. Casinos don't try to predict the future of every spin of the wheel or roll of the dice. Every individual game is random. But over a large enough sample size (number of games played), the odds are not random . The same principle is at play in trading the markets, except the "odds" are determined by the traders' skill - their "edge." Whic…

No. In casinos the games are designed so that in the long run the house always wins. They don't need to care about odds.

The stock market isn't a game; it isn't designed and it continuously evolves.

Re: Why do traders in investment banks feel their jobs are immune from AI, etc?

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Automatic image and video captioning is in a very sorry state. Machines can't do it. Machine learning is rule based. The difference is just that it creates many more rules for more and more granular cases. But it will never be intelligent, it will always be a dumb digital bureaucrat.

> Automatic image and video captioning is in a very sorry state. Machines can't do it. You may have missed various dramatic improvements over the past year: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?as_ylo=2016&q=%22image+ca...

Definitely haven't. Where is captioning applied with human like accuracy?

Re: Why do traders in investment banks feel their jobs are immune from AI, etc?

#159
post #124

a constant change respecting an infinite and broad amount of variables (macroeconomic), a complex system (repeating exact past actions, will not give you the same results) and a social interaction/conflict regarding an ambiguous valuation of a price, it becomes incredibly difficult to determine those laws and rules. Just like driving a car.

Well, no, not really. Ideally a car has a definable spec, such as a road with consistent markers. Steering within a consistent set of lines and reacting to other cars on the road is difficult enough, especially if you try to account for random behavior from other drivers.

Modeling and forecasting a security's price mathematically, or a set of security prices, is complex in a different sort of way. A better analogy would be like trying to program a car to deal with a meteorite that suddenly hits the road in a random spot, or a bomb that goes off 100 feet in front of the car as it's cruising on the road. There are far fewer rules with which to start a foundation, and the entire macroeconomic structure is far more delicate and in constant flux from news, other traders competing against you, information closed to the market, etc. With cars, you at least get a road, and add randomness in with other drivers. With security prices, you might have a lower bound of potential losses, if you're buying long. It's just a different animal.

Re: Why do traders in investment banks feel their jobs are immune from AI, etc?

#160
> "Why do traders in investment banks feel their jobs are immune from AI, etc?"

Why do people need to have anxiety and fear about AI is the better question. Let's solve those instead of this blindless ambition to automate everything, and then somehow assume our benevolent government will give everyone UBI or some other pipe dream.

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