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Ask HN: How do I gauge the value of stock options that I have been offered?

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31–40 of 58 posts

Re: Ask HN: How do I gauge the value of stock options that I have been offered?

#31
Some thoughts (I'm neither a CPA nor a lawyer, so caveat emptor):

0) Make sure you understand 409a valuation and Alternative Minimum Tax. These two concepts will materially impact the post-tax value of late-stage private company options.

1) Clarify what the $1300 price is. Is it a 409a price, or the latest preferred share price, or something else? Also, get an exact number if $1300 is approximate.

2) Make sure your options are ISOs (and not NSOs). Ask for the count of total outstanding shares.

3) Try to get a history of the company's recent 409a valuations. This will give you some idea of how fast the fair market value is growing. Fair market value at time of exercise affects the taxes you owe.

4) If you leave the company, check how long you have to exercise your options or lose them. The standard is 90 days - this is something to be aware of so it doesn't surprise you.

Re: Ask HN: How do I gauge the value of stock options that I have been offered?

#32
post #18

If they are currently valued at $1300 each with a private company valuation of $1B that means: You have to pay $1300 per share to acquire them and have no ability to sell them. If the company goes public or acquired the company will have to be valued more than $1B for the options to be worth anything to you. Honestly you shouldn't ever consider options to be worth anything more than the paper they're printed on until…

Doesn't that depend on whether they are RSU's? Then there is no strike price as far as I remember only capital Gains.

Re: Ask HN: How do I gauge the value of stock options that I have been offered?

#33
post #4

Really depends on how much risk you're willing to take. I personally don't value stock options and would look purely at compensation that can be used today.

>I personally don't value stock options Yes you do. I'll give you $50 for all of yours. What's that? Oh that's right: you do.

I wouldn't be interested in selling my exercised options, but my unexercised ones that could work, but you would need to offer at least the purchase price. Unfortunately, only employees can own shares... :[

Re: Ask HN: How do I gauge the value of stock options that I have been offered?

#34
post #18

If they are currently valued at $1300 each with a private company valuation of $1B that means: You have to pay $1300 per share to acquire them and have no ability to sell them. If the company goes public or acquired the company will have to be valued more than $1B for the options to be worth anything to you. Honestly you shouldn't ever consider options to be worth anything more than the paper they're printed on until…

Doesn't that depend on whether they are RSU's? Then there is no strike price as far as I remember only capital Gains.

An RSU is not the same as a stock option.

Re: Ask HN: How do I gauge the value of stock options that I have been offered?

#35
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I personally don't value stock options Yes you do. I'll give you $50 for all of yours. What's that? Oh that's right: you do.

I wouldn't be interested in selling my exercised options, but my unexercised ones that could work, but you would need to offer at least the purchase price. Unfortunately, only employees can own shares... :[

I simply don't believe you - if there were a hypothetical way you could have a $50 bill on your desk but, in case they end up worth something, your unexercised options are no longer yours, they're someone else's, and you didn't need to deal with anything else and it were easy legally - then I don't think you would actually want to do that, you wouldn't choose to make that trade.

Let me compare it with something else - say you already belonged to a gym but your employer as a christmas gift gave you a totally transferrable 50% off gift certificate (but that there's no particularly liquid market for, it's not like it has an obvious market price you can sell online) to a more expensive gym that is far from you, that you don't like for some reason because its focus doesn't match yours (maybe it's always fairly bustling and you like fewer people distracting you, whatever, in fact maybe you like going at times that that gym is closed!), and that is still more expensive after 50% off than your annually paid-up membership 15 minutes from your house and that you like: then you would be happy to give it to someone you know for, say $10 or if it'll make them happy or as a favor or for a sandwich. It really is something you value at closer to $0, and I judge that you would be glad to part with it for that amount or for free in that case.

I judge you wouldn't actually part with your options for $10 or $50 even if hypothetically it's legal and trivially easy for you. This is just my impression. I don't think you would do it. If you reflect on the two scenarios above (the first and the second paragraph of this comment) I think in your heart of hearts you see the difference. It's not a small difference.

Re: Ask HN: How do I gauge the value of stock options that I have been offered?

#36
post #27

Zero. All done, and no fancy math required. Say what you will, but I've been coding professionally for over 20 years. YMMV.

I agree. If they end up being worth something, it's a bonus, not a part of your compensation. There are just too many potential scenarios where you get nothing out of them to rely on them.

Re: Ask HN: How do I gauge the value of stock options that I have been offered?

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't that depend on whether they are RSU's? Then there is no strike price as far as I remember only capital Gains.

An RSU is not the same as a stock option.

No but I wonder if that's what he got instead the price taken into consideration.

Re: Ask HN: How do I gauge the value of stock options that I have been offered?

#38
Without knowing the total number of shares it's hard to know what you have. You also need to know how your options will be treated under various scenarios: company goes public, company is sold, company is acquired, company gets more funding, etc. In general employee options get the short end of the stick in most of those scenarios. One can still make out well, just usually not as well as they had thought/hoped.

At the end of the day one must remember that more often than not options don't work out the way one hopes. They're used as a cheap form of comp since it's just paper to the company. They can provide a nice bonus under the right scenario but be very cautious about accepting options in place of proper compensation at your full value (e.g. cash in the bank). More people than would care to admit it accepted options in place of cash for their base comp and lived to regret it.

Negotiate proper comp up front and only accept options as part of the icing on the cake. If they can't pay you properly then you have serious reason to question if this thing is a "real company" or just a bunch of hyped up fluff with a valuation that could vaporize overnight--making your options completely worthless before you even knew what just happened.

Re: Ask HN: How do I gauge the value of stock options that I have been offered?

#39
Some people use Black Scholes to price options but that can be very hard, as there are two unknowns (volatility and if anyone has preferences over you).

A few questions you can and should ask:

1 - What was the last valuation based on outside investors, and how long ago was it?

2 - How many preferences are in the cap table? (If a group of investors put in 100 million with a 2X liquidation preference then they are guaranteed to get 200 million before others get anything)

3 - Related to 2, ask at what exit value all shareholders get treated the same.

4 - Ask about how soon you would have to exercise upon leaving. (Frequently 90 days)

5 - See if the stock is trading in any secondary markets, or if there is news of public market investors remarking their shares.

6 - Ask about growth projections. (EBITDA for PE funded companies, Revenue for VC backed)

7 - Ask if future rounds will be needed. (If the business isn't close to cash flow positive and there are a lot of growth projected, this will take a lot of money)

Net - there is a price the investors put per share on their stock. Yours should be at some discount to that. So if the investors value it at $1300 then you should come in less, much less. (And if it's too much less than the strike price, you are betting on a lot of growth)

Re: Ask HN: How do I gauge the value of stock options that I have been offered?

#40
post #29
post #25

$1300 is really an unusually high strike price. While in theory there is no difference between 200 options at $1300 per share and 20k options at $13 per share, the former is very unusual and I'd at least want to know the story. If the company is to IPO there will almost certainly be a stock split. One way to force small stakeholders off your cap table is to do a reverse stock split because fractional shares are typic…

Your scenario is the company with the $1,300+ strike price will do a reverse stock split because they want to IPO with a $6,500+ share price instead?

No my theory is that they may have already done a reverse split to wash out small stakeholders. If there is an IPO in their future they will have to do a split as well. The former small stakeholders would not get their shares back.

Obviously I know nothing about this but if I were the poster I would ask to hear the story.

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