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Lenovo ThinkPad T460 – A Good Linux Laptop for Development

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Re: Lenovo ThinkPad T460 – A Good Linux Laptop for Development

#141
post #59
post #35

> ... I find the boot time compelling enough (~23sec until login, plus 2sec to open the browser) that I do not need this. I think something is slowing down your boot, I get faster boot on a 2008 thinkpad running the same OS. OT: systemd was supposed to improve boot performance but it has actually become much worse. Upstart on a weak chromebook boots in under 2 sec, why shouldn't your current generation thinkpad with…

I find it curious that you care about boot-times. I use macbooks and just close and reopen the lid. Waking from this sleep takes less than a second usually. My average uptime is about 22 days until I reboot for an update or something. I used Linux for years, and I understood that in 2008 sleep/resume on notebooks didn't properly work, but now we have 2017 - 9 years later!

I use whole drive encryption to protect data in the event I leave my old X220 (Fedora) on the bus.

I don't mind boot times in the 20s range (X220/Fedora/cheapo SSD) too much, but I do need to close down/reboot a couple of times a day otherwise no point in encryption.

Re: Lenovo ThinkPad T460 – A Good Linux Laptop for Development

#142
I've been using a CTO T440s with Intel WiFi option the last few years, running Debian and Arch Linux. I switched the HD for a SSD when I bought the machine. Initially I was somewhat disappointed because early reviewers seem to have gotten a better panel for the IPS display option then the later models had. The keyboard is good but not great: it has been replaced within warranty because some keys came off – the tiny plastic clips on the key caps had broken off. Lenovo serviced the machine for free within 2 days, even in Northern Europe, which is way better service than the people around me with Apple hardware have ever gotten.

Apart from that the laptop has been absolutely stable and silent most of the time. I'd rate it better than average, just below the old IBM Thinkpads (e.g. T42) and Macbook Pros mostly because I wish they'd make the keyboard and trackpad feel a bit more solid like the one on a Macbook Pro. I'd step on a T42, not so much on the T440s.

While it's not perfect, I'd consider buying it again, especially as a Linux user.

Re: Lenovo ThinkPad T460 – A Good Linux Laptop for Development

#143
post #3

Ive went with a T420 recently, mostly because of the keyboard. But also because $400 for laptop + battery + Samsung SSD + 16GB hyperX Ram sounded so cheap i could not resist. And honestly even after a 2015 MBP it feels perfect for all my needs. In fact due to the superior RAM and SSD it feels often way faster than the MBP for 5 times that price felt. Plus it has way better battery life. Seriously Thinkpads are the be…

The T420 is a 5 year old machine, i highly doubt it can have the same battery life as a modern Haswell/Broadwell/Skylake chip.

Well i am sure more modern chip sets are better overall. But its still better with my 3 cell than i had on a brand new 2015 MBP.

Re: Lenovo ThinkPad T460 – A Good Linux Laptop for Development

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ThinkPads never had Superfish nor the Lenovo Service Engine (the Windows Platform Binary Table thing you're referring to). Of course you're right that Lenovo never should have put those on any of their machines, but my impression is that ThinkPads and the consumer line are run by very different groups within Lenovo. https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/product_security/superfish https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/product_s…

Unfortunately, even a recent (Aug 2016) new Thinkpad T460p included a Lenovo Windows app that apparently runs daily to send "usage data" to Lenovo. It is easily disabled, but still troubling because most customers will be unaware that it exists. http://www.computerworld.com/article/2984889/windows-pcs/len... https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/documents/ht102023 > As of September 2015: Lenovo systems may include softwar…

To be fair, if it comes with a preinstalled version of windows you can never really be sure what is on the machine, can you?

I suspect that if a company really wanted to hide something they probably could. So unless you install windows or another OS on it yourself, you don't know what the manufacturer put on it.

I guess it would not be too hard to find in general if it shows up in the list of processes, but they could make it quite obscure and hard to find.

But yeah, I agree that this is quite an annoying move from Lenovo. The least they could do is make it opt-in instead of on by default.

Re: Lenovo ThinkPad T460 – A Good Linux Laptop for Development

#145
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...which is crucial since you don't want to lose your data when closing the lid. (Non-tech-term is on purpose here, since users shouldn't need to know about the difference. Also I believe OSX uses a hybrid approach).

You do not loose your data with both methods as power is used for suspend to RAM. BTW: OSX has not a "pure" suspend to disc anymore and the default method is suspend to RAM when closing the lid

Parent poster stated "What often does not work is hibernation (recover from disc)".

Which means the user loses data.

Re: Lenovo ThinkPad T460 – A Good Linux Laptop for Development

#146
post #33

I bought a T420s a few months ago. I am selling my much newer MacBook Pro retina now, as the Thinkpad is so much more functional, the keyboard is amazing the feeling of the machine itself is fantastic. I am thinking to buy a X260 brand new because I need a newer CPU and better battery life, but for sure I'll only buy Thinkpads or Latitudes (I have one at work, amazing machine) from now on.

I have a X260. Don't.

The keyboard is a smooth smudgefest with so-so tactile feedback (this particular point will depend on which manufacturer supplied the keyboard that ends up in your unit). The keys and trackpoint leave marks on the display when it is closed. The display bezel leaves marks on the palmrest. This is really poor engineering on basic stuff.

When I pick up the laptop by the lower left corner (hey, it's an ultraportable, why would I ever do that, right?), it immediately crashes with a garbled screen. After looking that up I found out that the HDD/SSD is under the left palmrest, and picking it up there may flex and alter the SATA connection, causing the crash. This seems to affect a random sample of users. So much for Thinkpad's vaunted "sturdy rollcage". But here's the real kicker: when I found this info on Lenovo's own forum, it was for the X230! This defect has been known for 3 generations of X-series Thinkpads, and yet they have never bothered fixing it.

Ever since they decided to move to 16:9 with horrible Low-Fi resolution (for a line of laptops meant to be for serious, professional users), I feel like Lenovo's Thinkpad group have be led with the vision and drive of a Roomba: mostly face-plants, and every actual improvement is to catch up to the competition (notable exception: hot-swapable battery). I only stick to Thinkpads because of the trackpoint and Linux compatibility, I suspect I'm not the only one.

Re: Lenovo ThinkPad T460 – A Good Linux Laptop for Development

#147
post #8

And one of the most awesome things about Thinkpads not mentioned; you can get every (most?) replacement part directly from Lenovo. You can actually look up the part number in the service manual, order it, and replace it yourself. For nerds like us, this is sooo nice sometimes, when you just wanna get it fixed quickly, from the comfort of your own home.

The fact that there are easily accessible service manuals (that tell you how to fix the computer) or sometimes videos (that show you how to fix the computer) is also a nice plus.

Re: Lenovo ThinkPad T460 – A Good Linux Laptop for Development

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the only other option that has the FSF RYF certificate: https://shop.libiquity.com/product/taurinus-x200 One piece of hardware I'm very excited about is LowRISC: they're developing a fully open-source SoC, including open source chips, SoC and firmware. I think it's the most promising platform for formally verified computing, because it's open and thus possible to model and verify all the way down.

Thank you, but it doesn't ship outside the US. Are you aware of any other decent libreboot machines, even if they can't be liberated end-to-end?

I'm afraid I don't know of any premade options.

I've been considering building my own and have recently dropped out to start working for myself; I'm thinking, perhaps I could build one for you?

It'd depend on how soon you need it and to what spec, as I'll have to source it from scratch. If you leave some means of contacting you I will, I'm quite interested in building these things for another purpose than "I like having and making these".

Re: Lenovo ThinkPad T460 – A Good Linux Laptop for Development

#149
I think the best possible laptop for development that is not too expensive is simply a macbook pro unibody 2012, with a SSD and 16GB RAM. I still costs about 1000$ and you have to buy a SSD and RAM though they are reusable.

Connectivity : It's the last macbook pro to have both a ethernet port and a DVD slot. And you have one of the new thunderbolt ports and a firewire port.

The i5 processor is still good. The only drawback is the screen (and the GPU). But for development it doesn't matter, and for my part, I watch movies on it without any problem. With SSD and RAM you have a computer that is as fast as the latest macbook pro.

It is solid and quite beautiful like all Apple portable computers. The battery is not very powerful (about 5 hours web browsing with chrome), but you can easily get external batteries (like the ThinkPad).

It is easy to install linux on it with the new boot system, though I like macOS because it is still Unix and has a lot of convenient apps and more softwares (and I can still install most of linux apps with macports or compile them myself).

Re: Lenovo ThinkPad T460 – A Good Linux Laptop for Development

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reduced battery time (?), more stuff to fail and being dependent on software for hotswap functionality which may have some serious issues with non-Windows and even none NT10 based Windows operating system and the list can go on. We're not talking about a fingerprint reader here. Convertible laptops have to make very specific design choices/compromises which come with some disadvantages currently.

this is FUD. reduced battery has nothing to do with a convertible form factor. You are talking about the display resolution perhaps - QHD displays are obviously more power hungry than FHD. But then again, most people want "Retina". Software has largely matured for hotswap. Fedora 25 with kernel 4.9 is brilliant on a convertible. Windows has had it for decades. We already use the cheaper yoga and Dell inspiron convert…

No I do mean design constraints, hinged screen is one thing, a fully convertible one is another.

As far as the hinges, I had to replace the hinges on my Yoga 900 due to lose cylinders twice already under warranty.

Getting the wristband replacement as an aftermarket part hinge is well impossible.

On my Yoga 1 I've replaced the hinges myself and it never really fits like it came from the factory don't know if they do fitting but it's never 100% straight and with the amount of glue and crap they use to seal laptop with its never really like new.

Laptops with a rotating screen add complexity and have to add weight to make the laptop balance depending on the modes that the screen have to operate under.

They also have other design constraints for the keyboard and buttons which means the typing experience is often sub par due to a shallower keyboard and the screen has to be touch.

Laptops with a detachable screen as in convertibles have other issues including still blue screens (my Surface Book will still blue screen from time to time) as well as a lot more design constraints as far as what goes where in terms of hardware.

The Surface Book is probably the best designed by you still get a very top heavy laptop with a very small battery in tablet mode and problematic thermals.

If I'm buying a laptop I don't want a rotating screen, I don't want a touchscreen, and I don't want any of the crap that has to be tacked on or removed to allow it to turn into a tablet.

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