Live data from Hacker News

Why Wordpress?

johnmaeda.com

11–20 of 90 posts

Re: Why Wordpress?

#12
post #10

I used to have a WordPress-based blog. It was indeed a nightmare to keep up to date, unless a bit after version 2, where they included the option of automatic updates, and the whole thing was a bit more manageable. Not because it was too much of a problem before (download the compressed file, uncompress, move to the correct folder), but because sometimes an update came out and I didn't notice. Had malware installed o…

Another not-WordPress alternative is a software called NibbleBlog [0] which is nice because it's also written in PHP and will likely be easy for existing wordpress admins to deploy. No change in tooling. This also doesn't require a DB, it can run from flatfiles.

[0] - http://www.nibbleblog.com/

Re: Why Wordpress?

#13
post #3

I'm looking at the "dead" comment by PravlageTiem. I understand that PravlageTiem was being sarcastic, and some people feel that sarcasm undermines the tone that is supposed to prevail on Hacker News. But still, PravlageTiem raises an important point: WordPress has historically been a security nightmare. Possibly there was a tone of anger in the way PravlageTiem expressed themselves, but the security flaws in WordPre…

Yeah, I wish I could recommend WordPress to people because it's really nice at what it does, but the security flaws are too serious.The fact that it takes months for them to fix serious vulns reported to them only makes it worse.

Seriously, there are youtube tutorials about 'How to Hack Wordpress.' It can't get much worse than that:

https://www.youtube.com/results?q=wordpress+hack

Re: Why Wordpress?

#14
post #9

Because people who don't actually know how to build websites are fooled into thinking they have a tool that will fill that knowledge gap, despite the security implications that they are oblivious to.

It's the first choice among a huge number of web devs though, which seems contrary to it being that the person deploying it doesn't know better.

Re: Why Wordpress?

#15
post #3

I'm looking at the "dead" comment by PravlageTiem. I understand that PravlageTiem was being sarcastic, and some people feel that sarcasm undermines the tone that is supposed to prevail on Hacker News. But still, PravlageTiem raises an important point: WordPress has historically been a security nightmare. Possibly there was a tone of anger in the way PravlageTiem expressed themselves, but the security flaws in WordPre…

I'd love to move client's mostly static sites to Pelican or Hugo. But that means that every time they want to tweak something that isn't content, I get a phone call. So I stick with locked-down* versions of Wordpress, configured to automatically update, and hope for the best. So far, I haven't had any trouble, but if a site did get hacked, I have backups on hand to deploy a new server in seconds.

*Besides best security practices for the server, database and Wordpress install, and clients aren't allowed to install new plugins or tweak the actual source code. The lightweight UI customization that themes provide is usually enough.

Re: Why Wordpress?

#16
WP felt like a good default 'go to' choice 10 years ago. Certainly, in the last 5, it does not feel that way to me, even though I still do use it for some projects (myself and my clients) but it's not a default, nor is it by any means the only tech stack I work in (There are a few things which don't get called out very much, but which were/are some of the underlying motivating factors for people defaulting to wordpress (perhaps as a more root underlying reason behind some of the 'large ecosystem' reasons people typically default to).

A primary one which gets overlooked is that fact that WP is about the only 'framework' of any sorts in any tech stack which allows people to simply move files up to a server. There are no command line incantations to run, no npm/build stuff to use, no compiling, etc. It's about the only platform I can point someone to where they can do an install themselves, and still make modifications later (days/months/years later). Many do 'one click' installs via cpanel or whatever, but even outside of that, the process to install and make changes later is about as basic as you can get - editing and moving files - nothing else needed.

Secondly, in the realm of web frameworks (whether we describe it as one or not, wordpress is indeed a framework, albeit possibly reluctantly for a while), it's one of the few that comes with a username/password/registration process ready to use, out of the box. Anyone looking to build any extension/plugin can count on a standard user/pass/registration/recovery process being there. Most other web platforms shun this most basic aspect, comparing their routing options and ms-oriented benchmarks. I think ASP.NET MVC v4 came bundled with a standard user/reg system?, and one might throw Drupal/Joomla in that camp too. Outside of that - certainly all the major PHP platforms for years - symfony, zend, kohana, code igniter, ez, etc - all gave you parts, then told you to build it youself. Typical rationale was "everyone's needs are different".

So... people 'build it themselves', thinking their own needs were 'different' from everyone else's (hint - vast majority of times, they're not), then we wonder why things get hacked, and point the finger at the devs themselves who... shouldn't have to be reinventing that wheel every other month. Devise in Rails seemed to have been a go-to for a while, and many other languages tend to coalesce around 1-2 frameworks and 1-2 user/auth libraries, but the PHP world is just too damn big for much consensus...

Except in Wordpress. Whether it's good or not, it provided enough of the basics in a standard way to become the basis for people to build on. And... build they did - often extremely poorly (no, really, not everything should necessarily go in to 'wp_options' - session data? really? and I have to run my own stuff to clean it up?)

These low barrier to entries have been at the root of why WP has gained so much popularity and control.

I certainly know there are 'good' ways to develop with WP as a basis, if you wanted to. And some people really want to. But doing things too 'correctly' from a dev standpoint (migrations, testing, dev/staging/prod setups, etc) means you're now fighting against the WP core principles of 'move files up and execute'. The core of WP doesn't support these concepts, and tacking them on feels... tacked on. You're also alienating yourself from the 99% of wordpress developers (in every sense of that word) who do not even understand those concepts in the first place - they will never be able to use or contribute to your code/project/tool. At some point, doing things the 'developer' way conflicts so much with the core ethos of WP, that you're fighting the base, and there's probably not much benefit (outside of latching on to the name recognition) and you're probably better off in another tech stack.

WP itself providing some 'blessed' approaches for creating plugins with testing processes, standard/defined way of importing/exporting plugin data, and other attendant issues around plugins would solve problems for larger-scale developers/users, but might very well alienate many of the folks who were earlier adopters. But... at this point, where else would those folks go?

Re: Why Wordpress?

#17
I see WP Engine touted as a solution. My limited experience with a client several months ago was "hey, we're getting really big, we need better security and better performance", they shop around, and get sold (in a literal sense) on WP Engine. Signed up, and my friend started to try to migrate things over. Oh... yeah, they don't actually support many custom plugins - you could select from some blessed ones, but the client's traffic was all using a custom theme and set of plugins. Those wouldn't run on WP Engine.

I too (and many others) could make most WP hosting really secure if I got to say "you can only use these 9 plugins (or whatever the number was) and no, you can't put any custom code on the server at all".

EDIT: Indeed... every moderately-sized WP project I've worked on ends up being dozens of plugins (more than 15 being average, and one recent one having about 45 active plugins). Every time I mention that to anyone I know who 'does' WP they all recoil in horror and say "I'd never even work on that - that's impossible! Why would you need that many plugins ever?!" And then I think... they don't really understand WP, or they don't understand clients. Or... yeah, it must be my problem, because I'm somehow not good enough to deliver everything a client asks for in wordpress (requirement) in the mythological "3-5 plugins" everyone tells me is their max.

EDIT2: The client project referenced above was getting tens of millions visits per month, and as such the WPengine number I was told was somewhere in the region of $1500/month.

Re: Why Wordpress?

#18
I love wordpress, but I don't love PHP, updates, security flaws, or hosting. I haven't done it yet, but I'm considering using the Simply Static plugin[0] to migrate to generated static pages from my wordpress instance, which sidesteps all of those problems.

[0]: https://wordpress.org/plugins/simply-static/

Re: Why Wordpress?

#19
post #3

I'm looking at the "dead" comment by PravlageTiem. I understand that PravlageTiem was being sarcastic, and some people feel that sarcasm undermines the tone that is supposed to prevail on Hacker News. But still, PravlageTiem raises an important point: WordPress has historically been a security nightmare. Possibly there was a tone of anger in the way PravlageTiem expressed themselves, but the security flaws in WordPre…

> WordPress has historically been a security nightmare. This. And all this started around the same time - in 2006 -- when Stefan Esse, the PHP security expert "resigned". In a blog post in 2006 (that can no longer be found) Esse was quoted as saying he quit > "because among other things they were resistant to his finding bugs in PHP, and had refused to patch some of the bugs he found." Source(s) http://www.darkreadin…

I believe you're referring to Stefan Esser. The blog post in question can be found here[0]

  [0]https://web.archive.org/web/20061215080243/http://blog.php-security.org/archives/61-Retired-from-securityphp.net.html

Re: Why Wordpress?

#20
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why wpengine is such an excellent choice for a lot of users. On the topic of PravlageTiem, the issue of WordPress' security flaws seems to be incidental to his attempt to accuse Sam Altman of censorship. If I had to guess, that would be why the comment is dead. I wouldn't call that sarcasm.

> wpengine is such an excellent choice for a lot of users. Here we go! Like I stated in my comment, companies like WP Engine, Sucuri and other can easily charge 100$ + for what costs Fear is a great motivator.

Another great motivator is that $30 or $100 is utterly trivial in the context of any website that has some actual business value and investment in its content and design. I know we're all conditioned to think web services should be nearly costless but I happily pay my WPengine bill for multiple sites every month and consider them keeping an eye on things a very good value for my fairly nominal expenditure.
Post reply on HN