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The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

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Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#321

Post by spacemanmatt »

closeparen wrote: post #209
Svenskunganka wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe there's another option; make the cities more attractive (and affordable) to live in for the middle class. You can see this across European cities, which is explained really well in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQSxPzafO_k It's easy to say and hard to do, but concerns like a good neighborhood or decent commute when looking for living arrangements in the cities is definitely not as common in Eu…

The cities are attractive, too attractive, that's why prices are so high. We do not have a demand shortage. We have a supply shortage.

Then why are there so many empty houses?

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#322

Post by [deleted] »

seanp2k2 wrote: post #265
ohwello wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We know how to safe six-story buildings in SF are a solved prblem, and developers have no problem following building codes when zoning allows them to build 6 stories.

The problem is that most of the inhabitable stuff in SF is being rented out at >$2500 per studio in those old Victorian homes, and it's not exactly easy to just evict everyone for a few years to build higher density housing. A lot of stuff is also under rent control, and since no new buildings are under RC (and all the new construction I've seen is explicitly luxury ), tearing old things down to build means tearing d…

[deleted]

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#323

Post by freshyill »

closeparen wrote: post #301
sh_tinh_hair wrote: post #258

In order to afford a decent newer house in the suburban beltway (DC) you need to spend 500k+. That's $2200 a month. Personal property tax on a 3 year old SUV and a new sports car is $2700 yearly. Car insurance is > $300 monthly. Car payments >= $1900 month. (college + personal) Loan repayment = $400 monthly. Food and gas + energy >= $600 monthly. State and federal tax + ss take about 45% of gross. Upper middle class…

Pretty sure you could have 2 brand new GTIs for less than $1900/mo. Holy crap, that's a lot of car.

D.C. is definitely a very expensive area. But luxury cars aren't dramatically more expensive here. It is a poor example to cite when discussing the cost of living. On the other hand, It's possible they could be normal cars and very short loans.

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#324

Post by Melchizedek »

laughfactory wrote: post #128

This article reflects my wife and my experience: just a month ago we left San Diego for a small town north of Salt Lake City. We make over six-figures and San Diego held only poor economic prospects for us. We'd have a very difficult time buying a decent home (2000 sq ft, good neighborhood, reasonable commute) for a price which wouldn't jeopardize other essentials like retirement savings, kids college savings, saving…

"...cities are increasingly home to high-rollers who can pay the high rents or down payments and lower income people who qualify for subsidized housing."

If you're not rich you might as well say fuck it, relax, and be poor. The middle class has to pay for _both_ the profits of the rich and the welfare of the poor, while not being able to afford a decent life for a family despite working hard and doing everything right. It is a totally exploited class.

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#325

Post by nopinsight »

Fricken wrote: post #224
mhneu wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just housing policy that's gone wrong, it's transit policy. We haven't built good public transit in our cities, and now that cars are filling all available roads, even houses far away from cities are too expensive for how long commutes are. We wish we had a train system in many cities that allowed the middle class to live 40-60 minutes away from their jobs. Ultimately however the main problem is wealth inequ…

It ultimately boils down to simple supply and demand. Want to live in a nice, walkable medium density neighbourhood with good amenities? Sorry, America stopped building those 60 years ago. Why did we stop building them, and why can't we build more now? The answer to that is long, convoluted and tragic.

Do you have an article or other links from which we can learn more about the reasons? A summary of the long answer would be helpful too.

Since the demand for such cities is quite high--a large number of middle class voters would like to live in one--would a mobilization of political will enable us to change to situation somewhat, at least over the medium to long term?

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#326

Post by m0llusk »

nopinsight wrote: post #325
Fricken wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It ultimately boils down to simple supply and demand. Want to live in a nice, walkable medium density neighbourhood with good amenities? Sorry, America stopped building those 60 years ago. Why did we stop building them, and why can't we build more now? The answer to that is long, convoluted and tragic.

Do you have an article or other links from which we can learn more about the reasons? A summary of the long answer would be helpful too. Since the demand for such cities is quite high--a large number of middle class voters would like to live in one--would a mobilization of political will enable us to change to situation somewhat, at least over the medium to long term?

Strongtowns.org might be a good place to start.

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#327

Post by tokenadult »

laughfactory wrote: post #128

This article reflects my wife and my experience: just a month ago we left San Diego for a small town north of Salt Lake City. We make over six-figures and San Diego held only poor economic prospects for us. We'd have a very difficult time buying a decent home (2000 sq ft, good neighborhood, reasonable commute) for a price which wouldn't jeopardize other essentials like retirement savings, kids college savings, saving…

a decent home (2000 sq ft, good neighborhood, reasonable commute)

We have lived for more than a decade with four children in a house with fewer finished square feet of floor space. I'm curious about what "good neighborhood" means here, because my children can walk or bicycle all over the place, without fear of mishap, and the local public schools here draw people from all over the country. "Reasonable commute" is also a term I'd like to understand better in this context. How tied to location is the employment you each have, if you are able to move out of state?

I have to think that it's possible for middle-class people like my family (at a lower income level, currently, than what you self-report) to live in cities, because we do. Most of our work happens to be in outer-ring suburbs, so "reasonable commute" puts us there, but other people with work nearer into the center of the metropolitan area can live affordably further in.

Disclosure: we live in an other ring suburb of Minneapolis, just outside the beltway freeway around the Twin Cities, and barely within reach of the bus system. My wife and my third son bike-commute often, year-round.

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#328

Post by Bombthecat »

laughfactory wrote: post #128

This article reflects my wife and my experience: just a month ago we left San Diego for a small town north of Salt Lake City. We make over six-figures and San Diego held only poor economic prospects for us. We'd have a very difficult time buying a decent home (2000 sq ft, good neighborhood, reasonable commute) for a price which wouldn't jeopardize other essentials like retirement savings, kids college savings, saving…

I don't understand the way of thinking that you need a middle class?There is no need for middle class. What speaks against a giant gated community in the cities?

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#329

Post by lovich »

snowwrestler wrote: post #308
sh_tinh_hair wrote: post #258

In order to afford a decent newer house in the suburban beltway (DC) you need to spend 500k+. That's $2200 a month. Personal property tax on a 3 year old SUV and a new sports car is $2700 yearly. Car insurance is > $300 monthly. Car payments >= $1900 month. (college + personal) Loan repayment = $400 monthly. Food and gas + energy >= $600 monthly. State and federal tax + ss take about 45% of gross. Upper middle class…

The car numbers jump out at me. The rest sounds familiar but you must have some nice cars to run up those car tax, loan, and insurance bills. For comparison, a couple of 5 year old Japanese cars run me less than $100/month insurance and around $600/year in property tax in NoVA. No payments because we saved up and paid cash, but if there were, they'd be well under $1,900/month. > State and federal tax + ss take about…

I was in Somerville MA, with street parking as the only option. My car had a blue book value of 800 and Geico was charging me 2000/year for bare bones coverage

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#330

Post by dragontamer »

shostack wrote: post #133
dragontamer wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In SF housing prices have grown at a compound growth rate of 6% for over 50 years. When a good chunk of those years had interest rates in the 10%+ range, and when the years that were lower than 10% ended with "The Housing Bubble Pop" and "Great Recession", that 6% compounded growth is actually kinda awful. In any case, compound growth is the center of most economies. Being the owner of things entitles you to profit…

Surely refinancing impacts this equation some though, right?

Yeah, go spend 3% of the loan amount to purchase a new 30-year loan, instead of paying off the house you already have... stay on debt perpetually.

Unless rates drop dramatically in a short-period of time (like in 2012), refinancing opportunities are rare. From the 1980s, you wouldn't have had a refinance opportunity until the mid 90s.

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