The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore • Hacker News Board

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#151

Post by 1024core » Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 7:33 PM UTC

I live in SF, and am flabbergasted at the number of 1- or 2- floor single-family homes. A city the size of SF (46 sq mi) and population (850K+ and growing) simply can't afford so many SFHs.

I was in Barcelona recently (yay NIPS!) and Barcelona is smaller than SF (36 sq mi) and has nearly twice the population! Everywhere you see are 6-floor buildings, with the bottom reserved for shops and people living above them. It is so walkable, with great (and reliable) public transportation. We kept thinking: why can't SF be more like BCN?

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#152

Post by vostok » Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 7:34 PM UTC

schoolsman wrote: post #25

cddotdotslash wrote: post #17

This article fails to mention that the middle class can't afford to live in the "nicest parts" of cities, but many cities have other areas as well. Take NYC for example. Sure, if you want to live in the Chelsea or West Village neighborhoods in Manhattan, it's going to cost you. But there are tons of available houses in Queens, Brooklyn, and the Bronx that are plenty affordable. The other day I saw a house for sale in…

> But there are tons of available houses in Queens, Brooklyn, and the Bronx that are plenty affordable. The other day I saw a house for sale in a decent part of Queens for $240k - definitely affordable for middle class. Do you have kids? Because this glib reaction signals that you don't, or you'd be aware that the areas you are touting as affordable have terrible public schools. That's why they're relatively cheap. T…

Do you have kids? Because this glib reaction signals that you don't because the schools in most expensive areas are terrible too.

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#153

Post by closeparen » Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 7:34 PM UTC

muninn_ wrote: post #31

The middle class can afford to live in cities, just not in a 3500 sqft house with a 2 car garage and a boat, and with the best school district and certainly not in NYC, SF, Boston, DC, etc. There are plenty of places to live in America. You have to adjust your standard of living and your expectations according to your income and desires.

But we already have the standard of living you describe at our income levels; the problem is, urbanization is taking it away.

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#154

Post by colordrops » Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 7:36 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #125

Gargoyle wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LA is a MUCH bigger city than San Francisco, especially in terms of geography. I'm not sure an meaningful comparison can be made as a result. There are certainly areas of LA at least as big as the total area of SF where middle class families can not afford to live. There are also areas at least as big as the total area of SF where lower-middle class families are the vast majority of residents. The cities are just too…

Right, I get that too. But then: is the article correct? Are middle class families being priced out of LA?

I live in L.A. and as far as I'm concerned, yes they (we) are being priced out. You can live an hour away from your job or in a dangerous neighborhood, but that doesn't really mean the city is affordable.

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#155

Post by ctulek » Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 7:39 PM UTC

I have 2 questions:

(1) Do not such articles sound like "not everyone can afford a holiday in Hawai"? Or "all my friends have a Mercedes AMG but I don't"? What is the difference? *

(2) In Bay Area, the daily commute itself is an obvious sign of overpopulation. How does more housing not make it even worse?

* I exclude the gentrification problem which is really affecting the lives of poor and old people as their mobility is far worse than middle class, and most of the time they won't be able to buy the new houses and apartments anyway.

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#156

Post by Sgt_Apone » Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 7:41 PM UTC

jessewmc wrote: post #28

rublev wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about places like Canada? Where your only real options are Toronto and Vancouver. Other places are lonely and small. Personally I'm into music. Composing, playing shows, going to the symphony, the opera, the ballet. Sure, I could leave Toronto, except now I'm in the middle of nowhere where there are no jobs and no culture. Now what? I'm sure it's similar for others in the US.

Montreal? Very cheap to live, probably the most cultured city in Canada. I'll admit the job situation isn't great there but that's why it's cheap. Calgary and Edmonton both have top notch symphonies, the world class Alberta Ballet, and burgeoning music scenes. Much cheaper than Vancouver or Toronto. There are huge, huge affordability problems with Vancouver and Toronto, but they're hardly your only choices.

Exactly. Canada is very diverse and there are plenty of music scenes, symphonies, and other culture centers outside of Vancouver and Toronto. It's like saying the only good places to enjoy culture in the US are New York and LA.

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#157

Post by forrestthewoods » Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 7:42 PM UTC

mhneu wrote: post #140

laughfactory wrote: post #128

This article reflects my wife and my experience: just a month ago we left San Diego for a small town north of Salt Lake City. We make over six-figures and San Diego held only poor economic prospects for us. We'd have a very difficult time buying a decent home (2000 sq ft, good neighborhood, reasonable commute) for a price which wouldn't jeopardize other essentials like retirement savings, kids college savings, saving…

It's not just housing policy that's gone wrong, it's transit policy. We haven't built good public transit in our cities, and now that cars are filling all available roads, even houses far away from cities are too expensive for how long commutes are. We wish we had a train system in many cities that allowed the middle class to live 40-60 minutes away from their jobs. Ultimately however the main problem is wealth inequ…

Inequality is not the problem. The problem is there are more people who want to live somewhere than there are houses. With perfect equality there would still be more people than houses.

The one and only fix is more houses. That's it. Any other solution is just picking winners and losers different ways. But no matter which way you pick the same number of people win and the same number lose.

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#158

Post by closeparen » Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 7:44 PM UTC

nkoren wrote: post #22

I'm a founder bootstrapping a startup, so at the moment both my income and my assets are very well short of middle class. Nonetheless, I can afford to live in London Zone 2 -- a ten-minute walk away from Tower Bridge -- because I'm happy to live communally with a handful of excellent flatmates. There's nothing wrong with this arrangement, and I think it's an arrangement that will only grow in the future. I'm seeing t…

> because I'm happy to live communally with a handful of excellent flatmates.

Television. In a small apartment, if one person is watching TV, the rest of us are locked into it too. Any hope of reading, programming, or any other focused activity goes out the window. After long days in a noisy open-plan office, coming home to other people's blaring TV show wore down my sanity very quickly. No job could possibly be good enough to justify that life.

In college, you could at least escape it in any of the multitude of secure 24x7 spaces with tables, power, WiFi, etc. But the libraries around here close at the end of the workday, and that's about the only quiet public space we have in this country.

I'd kill for a "media only with headphones" communal apartment.

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#159

Post by vectorjohn » Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 7:48 PM UTC

paulddraper wrote: post #85

Huge cities...good riddance. I live nearish to Salt Lake City (whose metro pop. is less than a quarter of Boston's), have tons of software job opportunities, have a 17-20 min commute, and bought a 2k sqft house on 0.19 acres for less than 200k. Big cities are crowded. They have their advantages, but even if they weren't overpriced, I'd probably still prefer my elbow room.

Well good for you, but you don't speak for everyone.

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#160

Post by cobookman » Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 7:48 PM UTC

moron4hire wrote: post #123

alexnewman wrote: post #121

THe problem is we still believe america has a middle class. It really doesn't. Even the people I know with household incomes in the bay exceeding 250k a year aren't really saving any money. Easy access to debt has confused access to capital with savings in america. I'm just glad I'm rich

Bullshit. There is no place in the United States where $250K means you're living paycheck to paycheck. You know people who don't know how to manage their money.

People are just spending too much of their money and lack fiscal disaplin. 250k/year is more than enough for the bay area. But you'll not be able to live like a king.