The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore • Hacker News Board

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#141

Post by colordrops » Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 7:30 PM UTC

cddotdotslash wrote: post #17

This article fails to mention that the middle class can't afford to live in the "nicest parts" of cities, but many cities have other areas as well. Take NYC for example. Sure, if you want to live in the Chelsea or West Village neighborhoods in Manhattan, it's going to cost you. But there are tons of available houses in Queens, Brooklyn, and the Bronx that are plenty affordable. The other day I saw a house for sale in…

In L.A. there is no place with housing at that price, even dangerous neighborhoods with horrible schools. Even the "good" neighborhoods have pretty bad schools.

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#142

Post by muninn_ » Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 7:30 PM UTC

jamespitts wrote: post #104

muninn_ wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is NYC a luxury? Absolutely. The access to institutions, the culture, the people, the shops, the history... all of that is a luxury. That's why people want to live there versus somewhere like Cleveland I guess. Once those cities are unaffordable for the very people you mention, they will just move to more affordable places where they have a better cost of living, and then they will bring ideas, creativity, and resurg…

I do not think that big city life should be a luxury, any more than the internet or computing should be a luxuries. While it is beneficial to improve districts, the migratory upgrading of urban areas is an economic model that may be problematic for the population. People need to get work done and take care of their families, not constantly deal with a series of dismal choices and life-uprooting changes. Instead of wa…

Well, big cities (using this term very generally) don't have to be. All you have to do, as you pointed out, is to improve the infrastructure of growth. Oh and recreate the unique cultural and economic conditions. Oh and you also have to do that for every city in the world.

It's just unrealistic. The pragmatic thing to do is just make one move and move out of the big city. You can lead a nice life in many places. Move to Alabama or something.

I can't afford a big city and I have a great life where I live. I visit those big cities when I want instead of dealing with the hour commute and sky-high prices.

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#143

Post by uiri » Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 7:31 PM UTC

rublev wrote: post #18

Clubber wrote: post #5

Strange, I'm middle class and I live in a city. There are other cities than NYC, SF, LA and Boston.

What about places like Canada? Where your only real options are Toronto and Vancouver. Other places are lonely and small. Personally I'm into music. Composing, playing shows, going to the symphony, the opera, the ballet. Sure, I could leave Toronto, except now I'm in the middle of nowhere where there are no jobs and no culture. Now what? I'm sure it's similar for others in the US.

Ottawa? More of a town with lots of suburbs than a real city but dirt cheap compared to Toronto or Vancouver. I would say that it is even cheaper than Montreal.

I'm not sure about the music scene but there are a wide variety of both English and French language theatre companies. NAC, GCTC, La Nouvelle Scene, etc. I'm sure the situation is similar for Opera and Ballet.

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#144

Post by RUG3Y » Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 7:31 PM UTC

paulddraper wrote: post #85

Huge cities...good riddance. I live nearish to Salt Lake City (whose metro pop. is less than a quarter of Boston's), have tons of software job opportunities, have a 17-20 min commute, and bought a 2k sqft house on 0.19 acres for less than 200k. Big cities are crowded. They have their advantages, but even if they weren't overpriced, I'd probably still prefer my elbow room.

Do you mind sharing what area you live in specifically? I've been seeing a lot of software jobs in SLC and I'm curious.

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#145

Post by shostack » Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 7:31 PM UTC

muninn_ wrote: post #31

The middle class can afford to live in cities, just not in a 3500 sqft house with a 2 car garage and a boat, and with the best school district and certainly not in NYC, SF, Boston, DC, etc. There are plenty of places to live in America. You have to adjust your standard of living and your expectations according to your income and desires.

I'd tweak your statement to be "Those of the middle class who were not lucky enough to have purchased an affordable home yet." There are many who lucked out on timing and now have a nice house at a more previously affordable price. As usual, it is the younger generation that gets left holding the bag.

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#146

Post by malyk » Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 7:31 PM UTC

alistairSH wrote: post #106

martingoodson wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For someone living in the UK that sounds like a far off utopia. Government recommendations are about 1000sqft for a family of five . https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/technical-housing...

We have a lot more space in the US. A typical 4-bedroom suburban home is somewhere around 1800sq/ft and, anecdotally, that number has been creeping up. Of course, all the space also has massive drawbacks... car-centric culture, sprawl, long commutes, harder to implement public transit, etc.

Not just anecdotally...

In 1973 average house size was ~1500 sq ft. In 2010 it's ~2200 sq ft.

https://www.census.gov/const/C25Ann/sftotalmedavgsqft.pdf

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#147

Post by muninn_ » Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 7:32 PM UTC

jamespitts wrote: post #96

the_gastropod wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in NYC. I live a reasonably fancy pants lifestyle—have an apartment in a nice neighborhood with a doorman, eat out a few times a week, go to bars a few times a month, etc. I spent under $34,000 in 2016. $24,000 of that was for my rent, which is admittedly ridiculous. But I think with a little financial awareness, NYC can be affordable to the middle class.

It is true that people can squeeze by in a place like NYC with the right moves (as you have), but a configuration like this one may not be sustainable for those who want to raise a family.

New York City is not a place to raise a family. Move somewhere else. Period. You can raise a family and go to some of the best schools in the country in places like Wisconsin, Minnesota, Ohio, etc....

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#148

Post by KallDrexx » Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 7:32 PM UTC

_m8fo wrote: post #114

Glyptodon wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your numbers are entirely unreasonable unless they're after tax. Maybe in Arizona and not saving 5k for retirement. But even there $150/week for food is like Ramen, Beans, and Rice, you're not accounting for transportation or medical costs, etc. You can live on 35k for sure, but saving 10k of it every year is pretty optimistic.

35k after tax is about 28k [1]. What's wrong with rice and beans and occasional meat? An average 22 year old doesn't need medical insurance. Given that many people don't save at all this would be pretty good. Also the plan I described already had leeway for unexpected expenses. 12k housing and food 3k entertainment 10k house 5k saving I agree that it would be a boring life. That being said, this is using 35k and not…

I know plenty of people in their 20s that thought they were too healthy to need medical insurance, until something happened and they had to have their appendix taken out and now have $50k plus in medical debt.

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#149

Post by Girlang » Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 7:32 PM UTC

There are plenty of Middle Class families living in Cities. But they have to look like "poor people" to the Government and work off the books.

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#150

Post by colordrops » Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 7:33 PM UTC

aaronchall wrote: post #57

The problem could be lessened if NIMBY's would stop trying to dictate how property they don't own should be used (that is, we allow construction) and if we'd stop subsidizing people who can't even marginally afford to live there. I figure if we'd eliminate the latter, we'd take care of a lot of the former. In NYC, we have recently seen rents reduce due to new housing supply coming on the market.

In Beijing they dealt with this problem by disallowing foreign investment in real estate except for personal use. Seems like a huge chunk of properties in L.A. are being purchased as investments by Chinese and other foreign entities, without ever physically visiting the house, which is at least as much of a problem as those you list.