THe problem is we still believe america has a middle class. It really doesn't. Even the people I know with household incomes in the bay exceeding 250k a year aren't really saving any money. Easy access to debt has confused access to capital with savings in america. I'm just glad I'm rich
The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore
121–130 of 363 posts
Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore
#122then don't live in cities?
Maybe... But it would be pretty sad to grow up in a working class family and then be forced to move away from your hometown at the age of 30 because rent had grown faster than your ability to generate income.
Of the various promises society has made to various people, when did "you always get to live in the city you were born in" end up on the list?
There are trade-offs everywhere. The reason these crazy cycles continue is because people refuse to accept alternatives. If more people said "screw you guys, I'm leaving" to expensive cities, the cities would start to become cheaper.
There are also cities that die off because the industry in them goes away. Are we going to force them to stay where they are so that they don't end up bidding up prices, driving kids born in Oakland out of Oakland?
Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore
#123THe problem is we still believe america has a middle class. It really doesn't. Even the people I know with household incomes in the bay exceeding 250k a year aren't really saving any money. Easy access to debt has confused access to capital with savings in america. I'm just glad I'm rich
Bullshit. There is no place in the United States where $250K means you're living paycheck to paycheck. You know people who don't know how to manage their money.
Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore
#124This article fails to mention that the middle class can't afford to live in the "nicest parts" of cities, but many cities have other areas as well. Take NYC for example. Sure, if you want to live in the Chelsea or West Village neighborhoods in Manhattan, it's going to cost you. But there are tons of available houses in Queens, Brooklyn, and the Bronx that are plenty affordable. The other day I saw a house for sale in…
Fort Hill, the neighborhood the article starts with and returns to repeatedly, is a lot more like Queens than like Chelsea -- and that's where people are getting priced out of now in Boston.
Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore
#125Earlier quoted context omitted.
Right, I get that. But that's true of every real estate market. The problem in San Francisco is that middle class families are priced out of every neighborhood in the city ; their only cost effective options might be in another city. Is that true of LA? It's only the case if there's no reasonable neighborhood within the boundaries of LA you could move to after an untenable rent increase in your current neighborhood.…
LA is a MUCH bigger city than San Francisco, especially in terms of geography. I'm not sure an meaningful comparison can be made as a result. There are certainly areas of LA at least as big as the total area of SF where middle class families can not afford to live. There are also areas at least as big as the total area of SF where lower-middle class families are the vast majority of residents. The cities are just too…
Right, I get that too. But then: is the article correct? Are middle class families being priced out of LA?
Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore
#126Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's perfectly fair, and I don't think it's pedandic at all. Maybe we just need to re-think the traditional notion of the US as a "middle class society," and what that means. It conjures up expectations in my mind (house, car, kids, etc.) that might not be realistic any more.
Absolutely true. But with other posts throwing out $200k as a normal middle-class income, we probably need to define what we're actually talking about. The income range, or the lifestyle expectations. The whole point of the article (and others like it) is that the two things are moving in opposite directions.
That's a nice succint way of putting it, better than anything I could express.
Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore
#127Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's not entirely inconceivable that the middle class is 6% of the population, or less. Perhaps another way of thinking about the situation, is not that the middle class can't afford traditional middle class amenities, but that the proportion of people who can afford those amenities is shrinking.
This is entirely my point and it seems I've done a bad job at explaining it. If a house, car, kids, etc is middle class then you need the salary to match it. What people are calling a middle class lifestyle doesn't match up with their definition of middle class income.
It's definitely the right point to make. I didn't even know the number myself.
Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore
#128This article reflects my wife and my experience: just a month ago we left San Diego for a small town north of Salt Lake City. We make over six-figures and San Diego held only poor economic prospects for us. We'd have a very difficult time buying a decent home (2000 sq ft, good neighborhood, reasonable commute) for a price which wouldn't jeopardize other essentials like retirement savings, kids college savings, savings in general, and debt payoff and avoidance. When a small box in Clairemont (neighborhood of San Diego) cost $500-600K you know things are out-of-wack.
Things are more reasonably priced here, but probably still higher than their intrinsic value. However, at least we can afford them without mortgaging our (and our kids') future.
The truth is that this isn't a situation the government has shown any ability to solve for. There are a myriad of reasons, but ultimately my feeling is that federal housing policy is deeply flawed.
Inevitably, by necessity, the solution to this mess will come from all those in the middle class who've been forced to find another way. Our voting with our feet will shape the next ten to twenty years in ways which are hard to predict. One likely outcome is that big cities will not be able to maintain their current housing price structures. A tipping point will come. You can't build a viable local economy only on the top and bottom of the income spectrum. You need a robust middle class. Otherwise the absence of the middle class creates a vacuum, and conditions for an implosion into that vacuum.
Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore
#129This article reflects my wife and my experience: just a month ago we left San Diego for a small town north of Salt Lake City. We make over six-figures and San Diego held only poor economic prospects for us. We'd have a very difficult time buying a decent home (2000 sq ft, good neighborhood, reasonable commute) for a price which wouldn't jeopardize other essentials like retirement savings, kids college savings, saving…
Not really. There's nothing stopping the capitalist class from reverting back to, say, de facto feudalism. Don't think that the working-class always has a way forward. We do regress, and we have been regressing.
Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore
#130This article fails to mention that the middle class can't afford to live in the "nicest parts" of cities, but many cities have other areas as well. Take NYC for example. Sure, if you want to live in the Chelsea or West Village neighborhoods in Manhattan, it's going to cost you. But there are tons of available houses in Queens, Brooklyn, and the Bronx that are plenty affordable. The other day I saw a house for sale in…
Link to that Queens listing? Or one like it? Not that I don't believe you but... I kind of don't believe you.
I've lived in Queens for 25 years. A house is minimum 400k, more often 500k in the towns furthest from Manhattan (Floral Park, Douglaston, Far Rockaway). Anything closer is 600-1 mil.