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Dentsu CEO resigns after overworked employee commits suicide

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Re: Dentsu CEO resigns after overworked employee commits suicide

#141

Post by ryanwaggoner »

iopq wrote: post #124
ryanwaggoner wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it's because there's a lot of confusion created by people who claim that there's an inverse correlation between hours worked and overall productivity, instead of hours worked and marginal productivity. I have no trouble believing that (on average) someone who works 50 hours doesn't accomplish 25% more than someone who works 40 hours. I find it almost impossible to believe that they don't accomplish more overall…

I definitely accomplish less overall when I work longer hours. For a week, I'll do more work. The next week I'll probably browse more Reddit. I just eventually rebel and don't want to do so much work anymore.

Longer than what? What is the optimal number of hours?

Re: Dentsu CEO resigns after overworked employee commits suicide

#142

Post by hkmurakami »

unsignedint wrote: post #135
qbert wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could work for a foreign company within Japan.

That would have been tolerable for me, but considering I have been experiencing difference in overall sociological expectations by just visiting there, I don't know if I would have been truly happy if I were in that situation. I wasn't exactly "fit to their spec" back when I was living in Japan at young age, either.

I've worked there. It definitely did a lot of damage to my psyche.

Even if you work for a foreign company, the way personal relationships work is very different from the states. That had taken me a decade to realize.

I'm glad you didn't make the same mistake I did.

Re: Dentsu CEO resigns after overworked employee commits suicide

#143

Post by pdimitar »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #140
pdimitar wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no problem at all with you disagreeing, but you do make it sound like your point of view is an universal truth -- which it isn't. In software development, I'd argue there's rarely a significant difference between marginal and overall productivity. It really boils down to personalities however, let's be real; and I am not gonna claim my point of view is universally true because it too isn't. The more and more y…

If your point of view is right, wouldn't it imply that working 30 hours per week is ultimately more productive than 40? What about 10 hours? What about an hour? Or are you actually in agreement about the shape of the productivity vs hours worked curve but you disagree where the peak is for software developers? If so, where is that peak do you think?

Of course I am not talking about barely working at all or some miniscule amounts of hours, come on now.

It's the latter from your comment -- I disagree where the peak is for software developers. But I can't give you absolute numbers that I can claim are true for everyone. There's no such thing. I am a proponent of the per-individual approach.

That being said, if we try and devise a good median number -- I've read quite a few articles several years ago that claimed that 27-32 hours of work are not only the peak of the programmer's productivity but that's also the working schedule that makes people want to work more in their free time. So in terms of your "free 20-30%", for people like myself a 30-hour work week would likely result in free 50% once every several weeks.

Not feeling forced into unproductive schedules gives your brain and psyche a good leisure time during which you occasionally find yourself thinking about the work problems in a chill state -- and it's also often the case you reach for your laptop on the couch to try and solve them outside of the working hours.

Again, it's subjective. I knew several people who worked best when they were given tight schedules and impossible work hours. I have to somewhat gloatingly add that all of them ended up in hospitals and subsequently became very strong advocates of low-to-medium working hours. So IMO the "punch the sun!" people don't live a sustainable work life.

Re: Dentsu CEO resigns after overworked employee commits suicide

#144

Post by sologoub »

arkitaip wrote: post #24
sologoub wrote: post #21

For context, from the article: "Takahashi had clocked about 105 hours of overtime in the month leading up to her death, authorities found." Japan has a 40 hour work week and a max of overtime a person can volunteer for. In a month this limit is an additional 45 hours. An employee can agree to more overtime but the source refers to some labor safeguards that are supposed to kick in: https://www.jetro.go.jp/en/invest/s…

Many Japanese companies pressure their employees to report significantly less hours than they actually work. So not only will they work you to death, they are stealing money from you along the way.

Thanks! Article definitely fails to mention this and it's an important angle to understand.

Re: Dentsu CEO resigns after overworked employee commits suicide

#145

Post by solidsnack9000 »

labster wrote: post #37
Asooka wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How long until people just start passively disobeying? I mean, if the choice is death by overwork or loss of career (maybe ending in death due to homelessness)...

It's already happening. There's a large population of NEETs who have withdrawn from the work force.

"A NEET or neet is a young person who is 'Not in Education, Employment, or Training'."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEET

Re: Dentsu CEO resigns after overworked employee commits suicide

#146

Post by solidsnack9000 »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #140
pdimitar wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no problem at all with you disagreeing, but you do make it sound like your point of view is an universal truth -- which it isn't. In software development, I'd argue there's rarely a significant difference between marginal and overall productivity. It really boils down to personalities however, let's be real; and I am not gonna claim my point of view is universally true because it too isn't. The more and more y…

If your point of view is right, wouldn't it imply that working 30 hours per week is ultimately more productive than 40? What about 10 hours? What about an hour? Or are you actually in agreement about the shape of the productivity vs hours worked curve but you disagree where the peak is for software developers? If so, where is that peak do you think?

I suspect what happens in software is as you go from 40 to 50 hours there is a modest bump, which plateaus as people fatigue. They ratchet effort downward to handle being on deck for 50 instead of 40 hours. Reading Reddit and watching the proverbial GIFs.

Now in this situation one can try to get that bump again by going to 60 instead of 50. Or one can reduce hours from 50 to 40 and suffer (in the short term) a negative bump with the idea that it will bounce back. Given that the short term bump is immediate, and the readjustment takes some time to make itself shown; and given that short term results dominate ones thinking, we can see how one will continue to choose longer and longer hours.

Re: Dentsu CEO resigns after overworked employee commits suicide

#147

Post by pdimitar »

solidsnack9000 wrote: post #146
ryanwaggoner wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your point of view is right, wouldn't it imply that working 30 hours per week is ultimately more productive than 40? What about 10 hours? What about an hour? Or are you actually in agreement about the shape of the productivity vs hours worked curve but you disagree where the peak is for software developers? If so, where is that peak do you think?

I suspect what happens in software is as you go from 40 to 50 hours there is a modest bump, which plateaus as people fatigue. They ratchet effort downward to handle being on deck for 50 instead of 40 hours. Reading Reddit and watching the proverbial GIFs. Now in this situation one can try to get that bump again by going to 60 instead of 50. Or one can reduce hours from 50 to 40 and suffer (in the short term) a negati…

What's your point here?

Re: Dentsu CEO resigns after overworked employee commits suicide

#148

Post by unscaled »

cookiecaper wrote: post #65
vivekd wrote: post #5

If the Japanese are working so much that some a literally working themselves to death - why is their economy so bad? My guess is that a lot of that time is getting used up with unnecessary busy work rather than actual productive labor.

Of course. Oriental cultures place immense value on the concept of "face", that is, appearing adept, productive, and excellent in all things [0]. In the U.S., sometimes we think "it'd be a good idea to try to save face here" just as a sidenote, really. In Japan and China, "face" is a recognized thing with its own formalities and children are taught to avoid losing face even at significant personal cost. In such cultu…

China has a concept of face (面子 mianzi), but this concept is quite absent in Japanese culture, despite both of them being 'Oriental', and what you described right now will be quite baffling to a Japanese mind.

Sure, Japan has a strong concept of avoiding causing trouble to others, and of respecting your superior by waiting for them to leave, but that's not the main cause for overtime.

Excessive worktime (長時間労働) is a very hot topic right now in Japan and I've seen several surveys popping out in TV shows. Here are some I found online: https://jinjibu.jp/article/detl/manage/226/3/ http://www.jil.go.jp/institute/research/documents/research02...

All this surveys give more or less the same picture: the number one reason stated for working long hours is "Too much work to complete in normal working hours". "This type of job requires overtime by definition" and "I want to do my work properly" come second. Unlike Western tech companies, deadlines only come in the middle, and "Not wanting to leave earlier than my peers or my superior" comes dead last.

Re: Dentsu CEO resigns after overworked employee commits suicide

#149

Post by brianwawok »

cauterized wrote: post #115
brianwawok wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked at a door factory. We worked 20% overtime for 6 months. We made 20% more doors. Works great for manual labor.

You probably also earned additional pay (at a higher rate) for overtime - which can help justify spending the extra time there, at least if you value the money more than the free time lost. Which doesn't apply to salaried employees.

Yes time and a half. Which was sweet.

Factory sent from 2 8 hour shifts to 2 10 hour shifts. They got quite a bit more production without the full cost of adding a third shift.

As a programmer I'm not sure extra pay would help. My brain can only code so many hours.

Re: Dentsu CEO resigns after overworked employee commits suicide

#150

Post by brianwawok »

toyg wrote: post #110
brianwawok wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked at a door factory. We worked 20% overtime for 6 months. We made 20% more doors. Works great for manual labor.

That's the thing though, it's an old-school Fordist concept that doesn't really apply to modern service/creative jobs. Time, like place, is not related to productivity anymore, modern employers need better metrics.

True. OP said overtime NEVER works. I think it works. Just differently in different fields.

I can code 80 hour weeks for a bit. Put out a ton of code. Can't do it for a month straight. But I could do manual labor overtime for a month straight.

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