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The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

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Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#81
post #31

The middle class can afford to live in cities, just not in a 3500 sqft house with a 2 car garage and a boat, and with the best school district and certainly not in NYC, SF, Boston, DC, etc. There are plenty of places to live in America. You have to adjust your standard of living and your expectations according to your income and desires.

This is a view that will lead to a highly dysfunctional society. First off, you are dismissive of the issue with that bit of exaggeration. It is not as if this group wants all the good things in life that only a tech salary afford. Perhaps a dignified life would be sufficient. You also place NYC, SF, Boston, DC, etc. into a category of city that is naturally not available to the middle class. Is NYC a luxury like a 3…

Is NYC a luxury? Absolutely. The access to institutions, the culture, the people, the shops, the history... all of that is a luxury. That's why people want to live there versus somewhere like Cleveland I guess.

Once those cities are unaffordable for the very people you mention, they will just move to more affordable places where they have a better cost of living, and then they will bring ideas, creativity, and resurgence to these areas and make them better.

If you're a critical worker, then surely you can demand a pay raise. If not, move. If somebody can replace you, you're not critical. If somebody can't replace you, they'll have to pay more.

I'm not dismissive of the cost of these cities at all, nor the plight of those living there, but you get what you pay for. If you're a teacher in New York and you can't afford rent, move somewhere else instead. What else are you going to do? Rent control? Then you just have people who can never afford to build lasting wealth because they will just rent for life.

There isn't a 'solution' to this 'problem' because it's just a basic fact of human organization. I'd love to live in Colorado, maybe Breckinridge, but I can't afford that. So I live somewhere else and visit. Does that suck? Yeah sure, it also sucks I can't buy a Ferrari.

Ideally we want mixed-use development neighborhoods with differently priced homes for people with different income levels to live in. But it looks like without the government enforcing it, that isn't going to happen.

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I downvoted you for the ludicrous statement that middle-class is $200k in household income, especially in a mid-to-small-size city. Wages have not been keeping up with costs or you might have a point.

I think people are misinterpreting my opinion of what middle class should be and the realities of what the middle class has become.

Okay, but the submission says the middle class can't afford to live in cities anymore. You're saying, "Of course they can! Otherwise they wouldn't be middle class."

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#83
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The average rent for a two-bedroom apartment in San Antonio is $1200 (the seventh largest city in the nation). The median home price is $228k, so with a median income of $51k that means the average person would be paying 21% of their gross income towards housing costs, well within the range of "affordable."

It seems very strange to compare gross income to housing costs and deem a situation 'affordable'. When FICA and Federal income tax is subtracted from that $51k ($9,800)[0], we're left with $41,000 of net income. I pay around $1600 monthly for a $227,000 house in Austin, so the housing cost would be $19,200 / $41,000 or _46%_ which is absolutely not 'affordable.' [0] https://smartasset.com/taxes/income-taxes#1DOWfkzhx…

A rule of thumb (admittedly arbitrary) for housing is to keep costs below 30% of gross income. That is why I compared median housing prices against median gross income.

If someone making the median income in a city can afford a median house with 21% of their gross income, yes, I deem that "affordable."

To go back to my example, the family making $41k net annually is paying $10,800 (ish) annually in mortgage costs. They pay an additional $4,781 in property tax annually. That leaves $25,419 annually or $2,100 monthly for other costs and savings.

My example makes plenty of assumptions that won't necessarily hold (after all, I'm assuming averages here). Notably, I'm assuming a 20% down payment and excellent credit. And no, that's not a lavish lifestyle. But it's well within the realm of "affordable" for an average person.

I'll also note that $228,000 is the median price, but a search on Zillow shows >1500 listings for less than $150,000. I saw one listing for 3bd/2ba at $135k within the loop. near decent schools and within 20 minutes driving distance of downtown, the USAA and Valero corporate campuses and the UTHSCA medical center, all major employers.

I don't really see what your example has to do with my point. Yes, Austin is more expensive than SATX. Yes, someone making $51k should not pay $1600 a month in housing cost. But you're making my point for me—housing costs in medium-large cities are not necessarily out of whack average incomes in all such cities, just some markets (like Austin).

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I downvoted you for the ludicrous statement that middle-class is $200k in household income, especially in a mid-to-small-size city. Wages have not been keeping up with costs or you might have a point.

I think people are misinterpreting my opinion of what middle class should be and the realities of what the middle class has become.

Could you elaborate (honest question)? My point of reference is The Netherlands, so I have very little context for that figure, as it would be ludicrously high for middle class over here (in part for very understandable reasons, welfare state and whatnot). I'm mostly curious about your views of the middle class and what they should be.

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#85
Huge cities...good riddance.

I live nearish to Salt Lake City (whose metro pop. is less than a quarter of Boston's), have tons of software job opportunities, have a 17-20 min commute, and bought a 2k sqft house on 0.19 acres for less than 200k.

Big cities are crowded. They have their advantages, but even if they weren't overpriced, I'd probably still prefer my elbow room.

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#86
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> terrible public schools There are affordable parts of Long Island and Connecticut with great public public schools less than an hour from Manhattan by train. We've grown accustomed to overporting our post-war suburban archetype of what a "middle class" family "deserves," i.e. lots of bedrooms, garages and lawn space, while diminishing previously (and still!) common practices like having roommates when young, not ow…

Right. People expect to skip straight from 22 or even 18 to a late-20s or early-30s level of "stuff" and general lifestyle, without paying their dues in the middle. It's called a "property ladder" for a reason.

This is either some thinly veiled Millennial shaming or just pure ignorance. After you read the other replies to your comment, read this one: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13292046

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#87
post #21

This article mentions "hot cities" including Austin, which not too long ago was just another small eclectic city with steady growth. Once it grew large enough and provided the ingredients to hold it's own, industry wise, against other "hot cities" it became what it is today. Austin was just a little weird city in Texas when I grew up in Dallas, but now it's up there with the big boys. What this tells me is there are…

I'd like to think this. Fingers crossed Tucson is next, but not optimistic.

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#88

The cities skew Democratic, but I wonder if increasing urban migration will create more Democrats. Then the Democratic Party has more of an incentive to build more nice-city. ...Might have worked 8 years ago.

This is absolutely the case, there are loads of books about the phenomenon. And every mid-sized city has some chamber of commerce that is trying to crack the code on how to be "the next Austin/Portland/whichever-hip-city". Hell, I've got friends in Virginia and Maine who are working on this.

They're doing it for fiscal/influential reasons, not political, but yes, this trend would benefit the Democrats, except that you can't attract hipsters with policy.

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#89
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question (because I'm ignorant): What sets of skills are in high demand in those 4 or 5 metropolises but nowhere else?

Anything in fashion, design, media, etc. Fields that have global distribution for creative work at large scale is what I'm familiar with and unless you are willing to work for a smaller company (I.e. not large consultancy or high profile work), you have to be in a major urban center.

Not sure why people disagree with this answer. There are clearly creative fields where the top jobs and opportunities are indeed concentrated in a specific set of large cities. Probably more so than most other types of fields. More so than tech, for example, web/social/mobile in Silicon Valley notwithstanding.

That said, other industries are geographically concentrated as well. If you have your heart set on working in the oil business, you probably shouldn't set your sights on living in Boston.

Re: The Middle Class Can't Afford to Live in Cities Anymore

#90
I think this article is coastal centric. If you don't want to live on either coast the cities are affordable by the middle class. Certain neighborhoods might not be.

I see millennials just a few years out of college buying houses in Detroit for example. Just not downtown or in Corktown. Similarly I've got friends with houses in Chicago, Cleveland and Minneapolis. I've got upper middle class friends who can't afford to buy a house anywhere in Silicon Valley.

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