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Dentsu CEO resigns after overworked employee commits suicide

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Re: Dentsu CEO resigns after overworked employee commits suicide

#111

Post by ryanwaggoner »

pdimitar wrote: post #75
jeremiep wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently switched jobs and now work 35h/week instead of 40. I get a lot more done in those 35 hours now than I did previously in 40. The worst productivity I ever had was in frantic overtime rushes at the end of projects. There's definitely a link between working hours and productivity.

One of the most baffling mysteries of our time for me is the fact that this truth (more working hours = less productivity) is still being massively denied and the non-existent and strawman "arguments" against it have been beaten to death and debunked thousands of times... yet never fail to reappear in any discussion on the topic. It seems the economic pressure for supporting this bullshit story is still too strong. S…

Maybe it's because there's a lot of confusion created by people who claim that there's an inverse correlation between hours worked and overall productivity, instead of hours worked and marginal productivity. I have no trouble believing that (on average) someone who works 50 hours doesn't accomplish 25% more than someone who works 40 hours. I find it almost impossible to believe that they don't accomplish more overall though.

And this fits the data: why would companies not dramatically push people to work fewer and fewer hours for this magical increased productivity that you're claiming? They could market it as a perk AND get so much more done!

What I think is happening: there's little cost to companies to encourage workers to work 60 hours instead of 40. Sure, they won't get 50% more done, maybe only 20% or 30%, but the company doesn't pay overtime, so that's a free 20% or 30%.

Of course, there's some point at which overwork does start to impact overall productivity vs standard-40-hours, but it's much, much higher than 40 hours. This study [0] seems to indicate that little extra gets done from 55-70 hours, but from my reading, that still doesn't indicate that someone working 70 hours gets less done than someone working 40 hours. Looking at figure 4 in that study, it looks like you'd have to go to 90-100 hours to see output drop back to 40-hour levels.

It just seems ludicrous to me to suggest that for the population at large, working 40 hours is the optimal amount, such that anything less will result in greater overall productivity, and anything more will lower overall productivity. Really?

0. http://ftp.iza.org/dp8129.pdf

Re: Dentsu CEO resigns after overworked employee commits suicide

#112

Post by jpatokal »

cookiecaper wrote: post #65
vivekd wrote: post #5

If the Japanese are working so much that some a literally working themselves to death - why is their economy so bad? My guess is that a lot of that time is getting used up with unnecessary busy work rather than actual productive labor.

Of course. Oriental cultures place immense value on the concept of "face", that is, appearing adept, productive, and excellent in all things [0]. In the U.S., sometimes we think "it'd be a good idea to try to save face here" just as a sidenote, really. In Japan and China, "face" is a recognized thing with its own formalities and children are taught to avoid losing face even at significant personal cost. In such cultu…

Likewise, Caucasian cultures place immense value on signaling status by bloviating about things you barely know about on the Internets.

Somewhat less sarcastically, if you're going to attempt to apply "Oriental" concepts here, I'd go with wa here: there is a set order here and it's not the junior's role to disturb it.

Re: Dentsu CEO resigns after overworked employee commits suicide

#113

Post by Cyph0n »

Amezarak wrote: post #90
Cyph0n wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never once pulled an all-nighter in college (ECE). I also never studied for more than 2-3 hours in succession. I always took a nice break between study sessions to let everything sink in. On the other hand, most of my peers consistently stayed up through the night during examinations. Most of my peers studied in groups. I sat in on a few sessions and discovered that for every hour of study, an hour was spent on petty…

YMMV - I was in college for six years, got a BS and MS in CS. I was surrounded by people who, like you said, regularly stayed up all night prior to exams. Sometimes we even scheduled that: the students would organize study-group sessions from 10PM-til. I had a policy then that, no matter what, I was going to get a full night's sleep. Period. Full stop. I think it served me very well. A quick refresher in the morning…

> I had a policy then that, no matter what, I was going to get a full night's sleep. Period. Full stop. I think it served me very well.

I'm exactly the same! Unfortunately, sleep is extremely underrated nowadays.

Someone on Quora asked Jimmy Wales (yes, it's a thing) what he regretted not doing enough during his youth. His answer was getting enough sleep. His argument was that, as you grow older and get more responsibilities, you'll get less and less sleep, so why not get the most rest while you can?

> Even if I didn't know an answer, it was a lot easier to stay calm and rationalize something that often turned out to be right or good enough.

That's a very valuable skill in my opinion, and I think it carries over well to stressful situations in general.

Re: Dentsu CEO resigns after overworked employee commits suicide

#114

Post by cookiecaper »

jpatokal wrote: post #112
cookiecaper wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course. Oriental cultures place immense value on the concept of "face", that is, appearing adept, productive, and excellent in all things [0]. In the U.S., sometimes we think "it'd be a good idea to try to save face here" just as a sidenote, really. In Japan and China, "face" is a recognized thing with its own formalities and children are taught to avoid losing face even at significant personal cost. In such cultu…

Likewise, Caucasian cultures place immense value on signaling status by bloviating about things you barely know about on the Internets. Somewhat less sarcastically, if you're going to attempt to apply "Oriental" concepts here, I'd go with wa here: there is a set order here and it's not the junior's role to disturb it.

Yeah, it is indeed true that I barely know anything about this. I thought about adding a disclaimer but it's trite to read those all over the place IMO. I just think it's an interesting cultural difference, from what little I know. ;) More than happy to accept correction and education from people who are better informed -- getting pushback on my thoughts is one of the big reasons I like to post on HN.

Re: Dentsu CEO resigns after overworked employee commits suicide

#115

Post by cauterized »

brianwawok wrote: post #91
msbarnett wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > Salarymen work large amounts of overtime, although much of it is for appearance’s sake > That's just stupid. That's overtime. Almost all overtime, even in the US, is as much about the appearance of working hard rather than any real gains in productivity. I've lost count of the number of times I've been involved with or seen a startup that "crushes code 100 hours a week because we're out to win, man", with most of…

I worked at a door factory. We worked 20% overtime for 6 months. We made 20% more doors. Works great for manual labor.

You probably also earned additional pay (at a higher rate) for overtime - which can help justify spending the extra time there, at least if you value the money more than the free time lost. Which doesn't apply to salaried employees.

Re: Dentsu CEO resigns after overworked employee commits suicide

#116

Post by zxcvb »

gragas wrote: post #31
rjeli wrote: post #16

Great blog post here recently on Japanese work culture: http://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/11/07/doing-business-in-japan/ "Traditionally, salarymen (and they are, by the way, mostly men) are hired into a particular company late in university and stay at that company or its affiliates until they retire." "The employee hereby promises the company: Your first obligation, in all things, will be to your company. You will work…

>Salarymen work large amounts of overtime, although much of it is for appearance’s sake That's just stupid. It makes me wonder, though: is the work culture similar for ex-patriots working in Japan?

Same thing used to happen with a lot of the consultants at Accenture - I hear it's the same at PwC too.

Re: Dentsu CEO resigns after overworked employee commits suicide

#117

Post by protomyth »

jedberg wrote: post #57
chipperyman573 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In college nobody knows if you really do pull an all nighter

Just out of curiosity, how old are you/when did you attend college? I ask because "back in the day" everyone knew. If you were a cs student in 1995, you pretty much had to work in one of the basement labs. One of the profs liked to come to the lab at 3am before a deadline and laugh at us.

I was CS from 88-91 and everyone knew since we were either in the basement of one building or lab in another. Plus, everyone knew if you were online if you had the cash to be logged in from home. The joys of classes taught on an IBM 370 or VAX.

The social aspects of the old labs made for many memories and lessons.

Re: Dentsu CEO resigns after overworked employee commits suicide

#119

Post by ghthor »

brianwawok wrote: post #91
msbarnett wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > Salarymen work large amounts of overtime, although much of it is for appearance’s sake > That's just stupid. That's overtime. Almost all overtime, even in the US, is as much about the appearance of working hard rather than any real gains in productivity. I've lost count of the number of times I've been involved with or seen a startup that "crushes code 100 hours a week because we're out to win, man", with most of…

I worked at a door factory. We worked 20% overtime for 6 months. We made 20% more doors. Works great for manual labor.

I'm productive for about 20-35 hours a week I'd say. Based on how interesting the problem is and luck. The other hours I spend trying to wade through my own feelings about being unproductive.
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