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Dentsu CEO resigns after overworked employee commits suicide

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Re: Dentsu CEO resigns after overworked employee commits suicide

#101

Post by pdimitar »

xamuel wrote: post #94
pdimitar wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the most baffling mysteries of our time for me is the fact that this truth (more working hours = less productivity) is still being massively denied and the non-existent and strawman "arguments" against it have been beaten to death and debunked thousands of times... yet never fail to reappear in any discussion on the topic. It seems the economic pressure for supporting this bullshit story is still too strong. S…

I have a toddler, so no rest at home. I'm either coding or babysitting. Hence, for me currently, more hours is always more productivity.

I'd argue that you have to smuggle any productive hours you can, during any time interval of the day -- or the night.

That doesn't inherently mean you work more than 40 hours a week, no?

Re: Dentsu CEO resigns after overworked employee commits suicide

#102

Post by blakeyrat »

vivekd wrote: post #5

If the Japanese are working so much that some a literally working themselves to death - why is their economy so bad? My guess is that a lot of that time is getting used up with unnecessary busy work rather than actual productive labor.

I "worked" 40-hour weeks at an insurance company with tons of process, paperwork, reliance on other teams with constrained resources, etc. for 4 months and accomplished nothing.

When I arrived the bug software had 40 open bugs. When I ended my contract, the bug software had 4 open bugs and 36 bugs awaiting QA resources to be assigned. I'm not exaggerating.

I've seen companies with departments that work 40 hour weeks, and accomplish pretty much nothing at all. For various reasons.

Re: Dentsu CEO resigns after overworked employee commits suicide

#103

Post by gleenn »

gragas wrote: post #31
rjeli wrote: post #16

Great blog post here recently on Japanese work culture: http://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/11/07/doing-business-in-japan/ "Traditionally, salarymen (and they are, by the way, mostly men) are hired into a particular company late in university and stay at that company or its affiliates until they retire." "The employee hereby promises the company: Your first obligation, in all things, will be to your company. You will work…

>Salarymen work large amounts of overtime, although much of it is for appearance’s sake That's just stupid. It makes me wonder, though: is the work culture similar for ex-patriots working in Japan?

I worked in Japan for a year at a 100 person startup (all Japanese people except for me). Anecdotally, people did seem to work a lot of hours but it was also felt like one of the most laid back environments in a way. It seemed like working all those hours allowed them to not be rushed. They were also pretty successful, and had as one of their goals to be like a "San Francisco startup" which may have made them a bit more of an exception instead of the rule. Also I worked primarily in SF at a lot of startups so that made it an easier transition for me.

I definitely saw salarymen on trains falling asleep or all heading out in packs to bars though, so I have no doubts about there being a very hard-working middle-class that also has extra-office obligations.

Re: Dentsu CEO resigns after overworked employee commits suicide

#104

Post by ryanSrich »

vivekd wrote: post #5

If the Japanese are working so much that some a literally working themselves to death - why is their economy so bad? My guess is that a lot of that time is getting used up with unnecessary busy work rather than actual productive labor.

Their working conditions are horribly inefficient.

Re: Dentsu CEO resigns after overworked employee commits suicide

#105

Post by greggman »

gragas wrote: post #31
rjeli wrote: post #16

Great blog post here recently on Japanese work culture: http://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/11/07/doing-business-in-japan/ "Traditionally, salarymen (and they are, by the way, mostly men) are hired into a particular company late in university and stay at that company or its affiliates until they retire." "The employee hereby promises the company: Your first obligation, in all things, will be to your company. You will work…

>Salarymen work large amounts of overtime, although much of it is for appearance’s sake That's just stupid. It makes me wonder, though: is the work culture similar for ex-patriots working in Japan?

Expats often have "I'm not Japanese" as an excuse and a lower expectation of conformance.

To be clear this is not just a company issue it's a cultural issue. If the company does not have a policy of "go home at 6pm" the default culture everyone expects is "work late", especially for men.

Re: Dentsu CEO resigns after overworked employee commits suicide

#106

Post by shas3 »

kilroy123 wrote: post #72
rjeli wrote: post #16

Great blog post here recently on Japanese work culture: http://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/11/07/doing-business-in-japan/ "Traditionally, salarymen (and they are, by the way, mostly men) are hired into a particular company late in university and stay at that company or its affiliates until they retire." "The employee hereby promises the company: Your first obligation, in all things, will be to your company. You will work…

I'm a bit conflicted by this... My American brain tells me this is an insane way to live. No work life balance. It's horrible inefficient, as you can't downsize, or compete international like this. You're forced to hangout with coworkers. However, having this long term stability with work is something that is sorely missed in the US. A pension? Job for life? No one gets these things anymore.

Many large company jobs are de facto jobs-for-life. But things sometimes get boring mid-way into careers.

Re: Dentsu CEO resigns after overworked employee commits suicide

#107

Post by greggman »

kilroy123 wrote: post #72
rjeli wrote: post #16

Great blog post here recently on Japanese work culture: http://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/11/07/doing-business-in-japan/ "Traditionally, salarymen (and they are, by the way, mostly men) are hired into a particular company late in university and stay at that company or its affiliates until they retire." "The employee hereby promises the company: Your first obligation, in all things, will be to your company. You will work…

I'm a bit conflicted by this... My American brain tells me this is an insane way to live. No work life balance. It's horrible inefficient, as you can't downsize, or compete international like this. You're forced to hangout with coworkers. However, having this long term stability with work is something that is sorely missed in the US. A pension? Job for life? No one gets these things anymore.

They don't get them in Japan either as companies go out of business.

Re: Dentsu CEO resigns after overworked employee commits suicide

#108

Post by nihonde »

gragas wrote: post #31
rjeli wrote: post #16

Great blog post here recently on Japanese work culture: http://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/11/07/doing-business-in-japan/ "Traditionally, salarymen (and they are, by the way, mostly men) are hired into a particular company late in university and stay at that company or its affiliates until they retire." "The employee hereby promises the company: Your first obligation, in all things, will be to your company. You will work…

>Salarymen work large amounts of overtime, although much of it is for appearance’s sake That's just stupid. It makes me wonder, though: is the work culture similar for ex-patriots working in Japan?

As a former Big Law lawyer, I can assure you it's currently the case in America, too.

Re: Dentsu CEO resigns after overworked employee commits suicide

#109

Post by ams6110 »

shas3 wrote: post #106
kilroy123 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a bit conflicted by this... My American brain tells me this is an insane way to live. No work life balance. It's horrible inefficient, as you can't downsize, or compete international like this. You're forced to hangout with coworkers. However, having this long term stability with work is something that is sorely missed in the US. A pension? Job for life? No one gets these things anymore.

Many large company jobs are de facto jobs-for-life. But things sometimes get boring mid-way into careers.

University jobs as well. Almost no way to get fired, unless you are just flagrantly negligent. Huge amounts of paid time off, generally flexible hours. Middling salary but generally great benefits. Boring but stable and predictable. Some people like that.

Re: Dentsu CEO resigns after overworked employee commits suicide

#110

Post by toyg »

brianwawok wrote: post #91
msbarnett wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > Salarymen work large amounts of overtime, although much of it is for appearance’s sake > That's just stupid. That's overtime. Almost all overtime, even in the US, is as much about the appearance of working hard rather than any real gains in productivity. I've lost count of the number of times I've been involved with or seen a startup that "crushes code 100 hours a week because we're out to win, man", with most of…

I worked at a door factory. We worked 20% overtime for 6 months. We made 20% more doors. Works great for manual labor.

That's the thing though, it's an old-school Fordist concept that doesn't really apply to modern service/creative jobs. Time, like place, is not related to productivity anymore, modern employers need better metrics.
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