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China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

bbc.com

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Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#61

Post by adamnemecek »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #60
adamnemecek wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all of the bans are the same. You might be referring to the ban that was announced late 2015 (IIRC) which was a temporary ban for a year to see if it works.

Meh, they do this a lot. Every year they talk about how coal will be banned in Beijing next year, or that they'll stop harvesting organs from condemned prisoners, and so on. Just for them to repeat the same pledge next year. The Chinese gov promises arent credible, and something isn't a sure thing until they really do it.

> The Chinese gov promises arent credible, and something isn't a sure thing until they really do it.

It's a first step. I think that this is slightly different from either of those because

a.) the money in this industry and the number of people depending on it is only a fraction of those of coal mining

b.) people will never need ivory the same way they need organs

Even though they do have a long way to go, promising that they will do something about it is the first step.

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#62

Post by adamnemecek »

zimzam wrote: post #54
adamnemecek wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We need to provide social and economic alternatives to small growers of illegal crops and other vulnerable communities in order to create the necessary conditions to bring them back to legality, We don't want legality. The reason why the situation is really bad currently is because back in 2008, CITES lifted restrictions on ivory sales which allowed several African nations to sell their ivory stockpiles to China an…

The "them" in this sentence is the farmers not the drugs: the quote is arguing for giving the farmers a path to a legal livelihood. Similarly the parent is arguing for legal alternatives to poaching as desperate, starving people will always care about feeding their families more than an arbitrary law.

Oh, thanks, I did have a hard time understanding that sentence.

It's true that the people need something else to feed their families, however western and Asian countries will have an easier time banning these products than providing these alternatives.

If the demand goes away, so will the supply.

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#63

Post by jordigh »

matthewmarkus wrote: post #59
pselbert wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Public awareness campaigns were key in stopping the ivory trade within the United States (before it was ramped up again by the Chinese). Demand is the real problem, and creating the image that ivory (or shark fin soup) isn't cool is extremely effective.

Calling public awareness campaigns "extremely effective" is a vast simplification of the matter. Public awareness campaigns are good at pushing a substance towards being banned. Once a substance is prohibited, it is subject to the "forbidden fruit" effect, which I've mentioned below [1]. Additionally, if public awareness campaigns continue under a ban, they're likely to induce a "boomerang" effect. For instance, the…

So, speaking about your chosen field, Save the Rhino International and the International Rhino Foundation think rhino horns won't solve the problem:

https://www.savetherhino.org/rhino_info/thorny_issues/synthe...

What is your response to this? I really want to save rhinos too, and I'm not sure how to help. I've donated to both of those organisations, and I kind of want to figure out how convince Vietnam that rhino horns absolutely do not cure cancer. Why do you think synthetic horns will work instead?

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#64

Post by dajohnson89 »

Cyph0n wrote: post #34
goda90 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if they just tell that to foreigners who ask questions.

I wasn't a foreigner: I lived in the UAE for 14 years. Besides, she was pretty taken aback when I asked, and I made sure to convey my surprise at the dish.

Your surprise informed her answer.

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#65

Post by gigatexal »

gigatexal wrote: post #4

Woot! Thank you China! Elephants are my favorite animal and it's sad to see such magestic creatures slaughtered for such nominal things. Or any animal for that matter. Shark fin soup? Seriously what a waste of a needed predator.

Now we just need to get Japan to stop whaling in the name of "science".

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#66

Post by jonknee »

hashkb wrote: post #10
fuayenaha wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is there to like about elephants? Honest question. To me they look like gigantic rocks who shit a lot. But of course that could be said of many animals. ;P

They also wreck habitat for other animals who are in more danger. They are very destructive eaters.

I am curious, which animals are elephants endangering?

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#67

Post by blondie9x »

This is really great news! But we can go even further, let's continue with banning Rhino horn markets (would we call it keratin markets rather than ivory?). Keratin would be primary component here, the same protein that makes human fingernails also is what composes Rhino horns.

http://www.latimes.com/world/africa/la-fg-vietnam-rhino-traf...

In Vietnam and some of China there are some who cling to a belief that eating the Rhino horn will cure/prevent cancer or increase libido. Those who believe this probably aren't aware that eating their fingernails would have the same effect.

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#68

Post by matthewmarkus »

jordigh wrote: post #63
matthewmarkus wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling public awareness campaigns "extremely effective" is a vast simplification of the matter. Public awareness campaigns are good at pushing a substance towards being banned. Once a substance is prohibited, it is subject to the "forbidden fruit" effect, which I've mentioned below [1]. Additionally, if public awareness campaigns continue under a ban, they're likely to induce a "boomerang" effect. For instance, the…

So, speaking about your chosen field, Save the Rhino International and the International Rhino Foundation think rhino horns won't solve the problem: https://www.savetherhino.org/rhino_info/thorny_issues/synthe... What is your response to this? I really want to save rhinos too, and I'm not sure how to help. I've donated to both of those organisations, and I kind of want to figure out how convince Vietnam that rhino ho…

Not to besmirch SRT and IRF. They're good organizations that know a lot about rhinos and ecology. However, I have my doubts about their grasp of markets, psychology, history, and statistics among other things.

For instance, from 2008 to 2014 they pushed the message that rhino horn was being used for medicinal purposes. As early as 2012, some intrepid investigators started to make the case that that wasn't what was driving the poaching crisis. There is now a growing consensus that Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) was a red herring all along [1, 2].

I believe they're wrong about biofabricated horn too. If you're interested, you can read my rebuttal to their objections here:

https://sosv.com/why-pembient-is-confident-in-synthetic-rhin...

TL;DR: We have Nobel Prize-winning theory (Akerlof, 2001) underlying our proposed intervention.

[1] https://twitter.com/savetherhino/status/798885174520016896

[2] https://wildlifejustice.org/cn/overlooked-rhino-horn-demand-...

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#69

Post by wavefunction »

StavrosK wrote: post #53
pselbert wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Public awareness campaigns were key in stopping the ivory trade within the United States (before it was ramped up again by the Chinese). Demand is the real problem, and creating the image that ivory (or shark fin soup) isn't cool is extremely effective.

Do you have any example of such a campaign? I'm only aware of things like "drugs aren't cool", which isn't going to sway anyone. I wonder what an effective example of a public awareness campaign looks like.

The US undertook a widespread anti-littering campaign in the 1950s. We of course still have rubbish making it's way onto our road and walk ways but it's nothing compared to much of the rest of the world.
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