Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

bbc.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 184 posts

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#31

Post by adamnemecek »

fma wrote: post #27
mullingitover wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is like saying, in response to a crackdown on mugging, "I hope the muggers get the assistance they need to get new skills and not move on to other crimes." I'd prefer if the poachers actually all got arrested, and got new skills breaking big rocks into smaller rocks.

Reading material for you from the president of Columbia, citing the failures of the War on Drugs. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/18/colombia-unite... "“We need to provide social and economic alternatives to small growers of illegal crops and other vulnerable communities in order to create the necessary conditions to bring them back to legality,” wrote Santos in an opinion piece in the Observer." And your…

> We need to provide social and economic alternatives to small growers of illegal crops and other vulnerable communities in order to create the necessary conditions to bring them back to legality,

We don't want legality. The reason why the situation is really bad currently is because back in 2008, CITES lifted restrictions on ivory sales which allowed several African nations to sell their ivory stockpiles to China and Japan. The current situation is believed to be a direct result of this and the demand has skyrocket since then.

In 80's, there was a similar poaching crisis, what eventually put an end to it was making as much of the trade as possible illegal.

War on drugs and poaching are similar only on the superficial level. Read my comment below where I talk about it.

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#32

Post by adamnemecek »

petre wrote: post #30
matthewmarkus wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel somewhat qualified to speak on this since my startup, Pembient, biofabricates rhino horn. Basically, rhino horn has been banned in China since 1993. Despite that prohibition, much rhino horn still ends up in China, where it is used primarily for decorative purposes and not medicinal purposes as is widely reported [1]. From a policy perspective, bans often don't work because they induce a "forbidden fruit" effe…

I was wandering as well if the ban won't drive the price up even more, just like the Prohibition did with alcohol.

Not everything has the same economics as illegal substances. Kinder Surprise eggs are illegal in the US but you don't see much of a black market for them. That's because they are perfectly replaceable by other goods, just like most luxury goods.

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#33

Post by goda90 »

Cyph0n wrote: post #7
gigatexal wrote: post #4

Woot! Thank you China! Elephants are my favorite animal and it's sad to see such magestic creatures slaughtered for such nominal things. Or any animal for that matter. Shark fin soup? Seriously what a waste of a needed predator.

I once saw shark fin soup on a high-end restaurant's menu in Dubai, sometime in 2013. I asked a waitress and she said they weren't serving it any more. The menu hadn't been updated, so the change must have been recent. I was pretty disgusted by the whole thing to be frank.

I wonder if they just tell that to foreigners who ask questions.

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#34

Post by Cyph0n »

goda90 wrote: post #33
Cyph0n wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once saw shark fin soup on a high-end restaurant's menu in Dubai, sometime in 2013. I asked a waitress and she said they weren't serving it any more. The menu hadn't been updated, so the change must have been recent. I was pretty disgusted by the whole thing to be frank.

I wonder if they just tell that to foreigners who ask questions.

I wasn't a foreigner: I lived in the UAE for 14 years. Besides, she was pretty taken aback when I asked, and I made sure to convey my surprise at the dish.

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#35

Post by adamnemecek »

ChicagoBoy11 wrote: post #14
bwilliams18 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China's effort to reduce shark fin soup consumption was incredibly effective. I hope this will be equally successful.

... and apparently one of the most effective strategies was using Yao Ming and Jackie Chan as spokespeople against shark fin consumption!

Yao Ming is actually doing a lot for this cause as well. I posted about this a while back as well

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8271382

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#36

Post by adamnemecek »

hashkb wrote: post #10
fuayenaha wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is there to like about elephants? Honest question. To me they look like gigantic rocks who shit a lot. But of course that could be said of many animals. ;P

They also wreck habitat for other animals who are in more danger. They are very destructive eaters.

> They are very destructive eaters.

This view is a really shortsighted. Yes, they do eat a lot, however

a.) there are species of trees that actually rely on elephants eating their fruits and then disseminating the seeds in their dung. There are also species who depends on this dung for one reason or another.

b.) I remember reading somewhere that something like 80% of animal species in the region are directly or indirectly dependent on elephants (because they might depends e.g. on trees that depends on elephants).

Calling them destructive misses the mark because they are just doing their ecological job. They are sometimes referred to as "gardeners of the forrest", check out for example this video http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20140114-elephants-the-fores...

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#37

Post by addicted »

Waterluvian wrote: post #17
ChicagoBoy11 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... and apparently one of the most effective strategies was using Yao Ming and Jackie Chan as spokespeople against shark fin consumption!

I remember the day Mr. T convinced me not to do drugs.

Drugs are biologically and psychologically addictive. Stuff like ivory have social appeal. The only reason they are valuable (like diamonds) is because others think they are valuable. So having celebrities decry them hits them directly at their source of appeal unlike drugs. This doesn't affect the bs medicinal market directly but if it reduces the value but keeps the cost high anyways (thanks to additional penalties) it may make the medicines less appealing to those who are price conscious. Of course this is discrimination against the poor and could be a genuine issue if they had real medicinal value but since they actually don't it's much more defensible.

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#38

Post by adamnemecek »

Cyph0n wrote: post #7
gigatexal wrote: post #4

Woot! Thank you China! Elephants are my favorite animal and it's sad to see such magestic creatures slaughtered for such nominal things. Or any animal for that matter. Shark fin soup? Seriously what a waste of a needed predator.

I once saw shark fin soup on a high-end restaurant's menu in Dubai, sometime in 2013. I asked a waitress and she said they weren't serving it any more. The menu hadn't been updated, so the change must have been recent. I was pretty disgusted by the whole thing to be frank.

That city doesn't have the best track record when it comes to human and animal welfare concerns. It was built essentially by slave labor after all.

I would estimate that per capita, Dubai is a larger consumer of illegal wildlife products than China.

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#40

Post by tn13 »

finid wrote: post #2

Good move, but that gives those traders about 12 months to "kick up the volume" of ivory traded. After that, it becomes a typical black market affair, kinda like trade in stolen art works.

Except that in China government can throw people off the cliff on a whim and it wouldn't matter. The only way to operate a black market in China would be to have a politician as a partner.
Post reply on HN