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A Sad Announcement

omniref.com

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Re: A Sad Announcement

#71

Post by webmaven »

timr wrote: post #16
MaxLeiter wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you not opensource it? This way, your work won't go to waste, and maybe the community can continue it.

Open-source projects take a lot of time and effort to do well. They're kind of like startups in themselves, actually. And in this kind of situation, you're committing to publicly maintaining the thing that you're trying to shut down. If there isn't enough interest at the start, it's just prolonging the pain of failure. It's better to rip the bandage off and move forward with your life.

Similar to sytse, I'd be interested in an open source release as well, especially if it's in Python (with an eye toward possibly integrating it into the open source annotation server http://hypothes.is), though unlike sytse I don't have any funds to spend on it, so would be satisfied with a clean code release.

Re: A Sad Announcement

#72

Post by abeyer »

timr wrote: post #12
gravypod wrote: post #7

This is why I think no one should trust companies that sell you software, that you can't host yourself, for something as critical as documentation and source control. I feel really bad for all the companies that have to jump through hoops to get their data rescued from this company. It also sucks to loose such a smart company. I wish they had built their solutions as a self hosted system so that people could still us…

"This is why I think no one should trust companies that sell you software, that you can't host yourself, for something as critical as documentation and source control." Omniref founder here. Please try not to think this way, particularly if you're a small team. I realize that this is kind of an impossible request (especially given the source), but one of the things that makes it immensely difficult to start a softwar…

"but one of the things that makes it immensely difficult to start a software tools company is the unwillingness of developers to use hosted tools, particularly if those tools are new and/or different"

Rather than see this as a fault with developers, perhaps this is an indication that hosted services aren't the best model for development tools. (or really any tools that are "mission critical" to someone's daily operations, whatever they may be.)

For that reason, when I choose dev tools I strongly prefer to stick with open source when it exists, or if purchasing something, a product that is perpetually licensed and runs locally. There are occasional exceptions, but they have to provide some notable benefit from being a service. (Github is a good example)

I get why SaaS is nice from a startup's perspective (not to mention being the trendy thing, and probably what investors expect to see), but if it doesn't work for your customers, maybe it's time to look at other approaches.

Re: A Sad Announcement

#73

Post by voltagex_ »

sytse wrote: post #63
voltagex_ wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, I hope you have been able to get in touch directly - I don't often see offers to front up cash in situations like this. Respect.

I reached out. But I'm not offering a ton of cash, it will be paying for work to integrate it.

Yep, understood.

Re: A Sad Announcement

#74

Post by timr »

abeyer wrote: post #72
timr wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This is why I think no one should trust companies that sell you software, that you can't host yourself, for something as critical as documentation and source control." Omniref founder here. Please try not to think this way, particularly if you're a small team. I realize that this is kind of an impossible request (especially given the source), but one of the things that makes it immensely difficult to start a softwar…

"but one of the things that makes it immensely difficult to start a software tools company is the unwillingness of developers to use hosted tools, particularly if those tools are new and/or different" Rather than see this as a fault with developers, perhaps this is an indication that hosted services aren't the best model for development tools. (or really any tools that are "mission critical" to someone's daily operat…

"when I choose dev tools I strongly prefer to stick with open source when it exists, or if purchasing something, a product that is perpetually licensed and runs locally. There are occasional exceptions, but they have to provide some notable benefit from being a service. (Github is a good example)"

This stuff isn't a "trend". It's rational. People who use your software but don't pay you money are not your customers. They're your users. Customers are the users who pay the bills and make you a business.

GitHub is definitely an interesting example. I remember hosting my own SVN and Git servers at companies. It wasn't fun, and GitHub offered an easy-to-use alternative with a nice UI. That's why teams paid for GitHub. But now you can provision a data center with a mouseclick. The market has changed, and with a number of free clones out there, code hosting is becoming a commodity. It's a race to the bottom.

The "notable benefit from being a service" that made GitHub a compelling purchase (i.e. backups, stability, availability etc.) is the same core benefit that any SAAS product offers. But in a world of cheap virtual hosts, it's harder and harder to make that sale. Especially when your closest competitor is your own open-source code.

My point is, it isn't surprising that you'd choose the cheapest tool you can find that does the job. That's what everyone does. But it doesn't make a great business to be offering your source to the world and hoping to differentiate on features. That's why people are trying to thread the needle with "self-hosted" offerings...which cost a lot of money.

Re: A Sad Announcement

#75

Post by jack9 »

buro9 wrote: post #46
aninhumer wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apart from stripping licensed code, none of that is necessary it's just nice. Nor does it have to be finished before you release the code, so there's no reason you can't go back and clean it up later. The code dump may not be usable without significant effort, but having it available is still better than not having it.

Open sourcing is a burden. Even just throwing it out there with things stripped and it not working is not an end. Then come the emails asking how to get it working, why certain things are as they are. Most founders and creators care, so these emails are hard to ignore, and you want it be a success (otherwise you wouldn't have worked on it or then opened it) and so now you're shackled to having to document piecemeal,…

> It's a huge burden to open source a whole project rather than just a library.

None of that is a burden. There is no responsibility and this INCESSANT claim, is everywhere (used across all manner of projects for decades, specifically by MS or MS acquisitions) without basis.

> so now you're shackled to having to document piecemeal

That just sounds like you cant trust yourself to make good decisions, again? JUST DONT. You ripped off the band-aid. PROBLEM SOLVED. But that doesn't happen, traditionally we just get these nods about how "tough" OS projects are which makes no sense, since you are already washing your hands of it somehow the OS project you HAVE to handle? Instead, it's much more likely that people are afraid of criticism, which has never been borne out in the wild..."but we don't want to be compared to DOOM's sourcecode quality".

> won't invest in the time to get it working.

That's a personal choice. Reading how software works and looking at design, is part of the value. Getting it to "work" is ancillary. SMH

Re: A Sad Announcement

#76

Post by mSparks »

dang wrote: post #21

Please don't be snarky toward a fellow user. We detached this comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13281887 and marked it off-topic. Edit: the comment was https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13282118 . My mistake; undetached.

please take your life somewhere else.

Re: A Sad Announcement

#77

Post by abeyer »

timr wrote: post #74
abeyer wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"but one of the things that makes it immensely difficult to start a software tools company is the unwillingness of developers to use hosted tools, particularly if those tools are new and/or different" Rather than see this as a fault with developers, perhaps this is an indication that hosted services aren't the best model for development tools. (or really any tools that are "mission critical" to someone's daily operat…

"when I choose dev tools I strongly prefer to stick with open source when it exists, or if purchasing something, a product that is perpetually licensed and runs locally. There are occasional exceptions, but they have to provide some notable benefit from being a service. (Github is a good example)" This stuff isn't a "trend". It's rational. People who use your software but don't pay you money are not your customers. T…

Paying customers aren't a trend, but only allowing customers to pay on a monthly subscription for service model does seem like one to me. And I agree it may often be a rational decision for the service provider, but I think it's not as often a rational choice for the customer.

Price isn't my main requirement, I'm perfectly willing to invest some cash in a better tool when it exists. I do have some ideological and practical leanings towards open source, but I'm also pragmatic about it and willing to purchase commercial software that provides enough value.

My concern here is about my ongoing right and ability to continue using a tool. Beyond any price I might pay to license it, I am also going to invest time and effort incorporating it into my development process, and would incur significant switching costs to undo, replace, and repeat that when a service provider goes out of business, pivots to a new product, removes features I depend on, raises prices to a point I can't afford, etc...

Open source avoids some of those concerns, and provides me with another option if the others happen; So does a commercial product that I operate myself; But with a hosted service any one of those things can become a "my way or the highway" decision that is forced on me, often with little warning or planning.

"GitHub offered an easy-to-use alternative with a nice UI. That's why teams paid for GitHub....The "notable benefit from being a service" that made GitHub a compelling purchase (i.e. backups, stability, availability etc.) is the same core benefit that any SAAS product offers."

It's an interesting take on our different perspectives that those weren't the things I had in mind at all when I brought up GitHub. I agree those were the draws that got users initially, but as you mention, they have been devalued by technical improvements in their competitors and infrastructure in general. I see GitHub's value now in their huge base of users and "social" features, and the network effects that creates. You can't easily replicate that in a free alternative, even if you were to perfectly clone (or even improve) GitHub's features.

Re: A Sad Announcement

#78

Post by [deleted] »

abeyer wrote: post #77
timr wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"when I choose dev tools I strongly prefer to stick with open source when it exists, or if purchasing something, a product that is perpetually licensed and runs locally. There are occasional exceptions, but they have to provide some notable benefit from being a service. (Github is a good example)" This stuff isn't a "trend". It's rational. People who use your software but don't pay you money are not your customers. T…

Paying customers aren't a trend, but only allowing customers to pay on a monthly subscription for service model does seem like one to me. And I agree it may often be a rational decision for the service provider, but I think it's not as often a rational choice for the customer. Price isn't my main requirement, I'm perfectly willing to invest some cash in a better tool when it exists. I do have some ideological and pra…

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