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Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

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231–240 of 275 posts

Re: Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

#231
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy to forget on HN, but there is far from universal buy-in for the notion that having or collecting data on people is unethical. Some may even consider it noble to optimize and perfect the world and its institutions (including commerce, via efficient advertising) using large-scale personal data. The impulse to make something better by applying a database engine that you might feel for business processes, can j…

The US doesn't have the privacy parts is WWII in memory. Where govt workers had to scramble to destroy what data they could before it was seized, where fire fighters let document storage burn as long as possible because it had census data, where others where forced to go through govt. Data to sentence neighbors to death, and similar hero/horror stories. I feel that the IT world is irresponsible in its collection of d…

>(What's the proper word for old data/information before computers)?

Files.

Re: Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not trying to agree or disagree with you here (for the record, I despise Facebook and anyone who works there), rather I want to point out that ethics often has no correlation with law. The difficulty in making ethical determinations is precisely that there is often no well-defined written criteria like a law or terms of use that dictate what are the ethical boundaries or what might be ethically or morally reprehe…

And that's fine. Most of the "ethical" barbs I see being leveled about facebook are on the hypothetical/philosophical level, rather than the practical one. As a general rule, I'm a lot more bothered by actual bad actions rather than hypothetical future ones. Facebook collecting all the data they want just doesn't even register as even sorta bad to me. (And no, I don't work there.)

I definitely disagree with you on Facebook being bad and there not being a practical component, however I'm willing to see what you are saying. There's a lot that can go wrong, but like you imply, it's mostly perspective. Sure it's hypothetical, but even those with the best intentions see the results of their work take interesting (evil) turns for the worst. Further, there's a lot that does go on that is not hypothetical and the problem tends to be that it is hard to educate yourself about if you are an outsider, i.e. not the person doing these things.

Regarding hypotheticals, if you collect data, it is always there for someone to abuse, whether they are technically "allowed" to do so or not by laws, company policy, or otherwise. It can and does happen more often than we believe as I came to find out from friends and family who work in government and legal roles. I am more of the cautious sort and would rather try to make a best effort that might not be perfect to simply mitigate and minimize the issue of the wrong thing happening. Though these cases may never happen, I am in the camp of "let's not make it easier."

As an aside, a lot of feelings towards these issues can be influenced by environmental and contextual reasons. For instance, I was raised in a family that lost a lot of people due, but not limited to things like data collection, humans selling each other short, supposedly good people making bad choices, and individuals acting highly in self-interest despite their "ethics." Further, I also grew up in a country more under constant and tangible threat than the US for part of my childhood and served in its army against very real threats during wartime. I'm certainly no action hero as my job was more of the engineering and intelligence nature, though I have seen first hand what people can, will, and tend to do with data, especially if there is money or physical security involved. Especially on the other side of things (i.e. our enemies) if they are losing. As such, I am more sensitive than most when it comes to people knowing things about me. I assume "they" know everything, but as I implied, I try not to make it easier than it needs to be and I actively throw in disinformation about myself. It helps if you know a thing or two about algorithms and the best ways to confuse them :)

Re: Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

#233

There must be many HNers who work at Facebook. Anyone willing to make a throwaway account and tell us how it feels from the inside for Facebook to be one the wrong side of so many ethical issues? It just seems like in so many dimensions they've been caught saying wrong things or appearing to outright lie, and I'm curious how developers who work for them think about aiding a company that seems to be so compromised at…

It's easy to forget on HN, but there is far from universal buy-in for the notion that having or collecting data on people is unethical. Some may even consider it noble to optimize and perfect the world and its institutions (including commerce, via efficient advertising) using large-scale personal data. The impulse to make something better by applying a database engine that you might feel for business processes, can j…

The Circle was an interesting idea wrapped in a really terrible book. Every page was full of terribly-paced plot development, one dimensional characters and cliched rip-offs of 1984.

Re: Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

#234
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really think what we need is to be willing to pay for the things we use so that we aren't aggressively productized for the benefit of the entities who cover that cost "for us". I stopped using Facebook not because I was worried about privacy (although that did help) but because it was just a waste of time. It wasn't doing anything positive for me. All the features that I had once enjoyed had been removed or drowned…

Except that the ISPs, automakers, IoT venders, etc are tracking you too if they can get away with it. It's perfectly possible today to pay for a service and be the product.

Farmers buy new pigs all the time to raise up and slaughter.

Re: Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

#235

There must be many HNers who work at Facebook. Anyone willing to make a throwaway account and tell us how it feels from the inside for Facebook to be one the wrong side of so many ethical issues? It just seems like in so many dimensions they've been caught saying wrong things or appearing to outright lie, and I'm curious how developers who work for them think about aiding a company that seems to be so compromised at…

I've talked with some FBers about this after one of them prompted me that I should apply for a job at FB. The rationale is entirely predictable (heavily paraphrased as most conversations involved alcohol):

* Zuckerberg has grown up and matured. We've all done stupid things at that age so we shouldn't measure him by his infamous line about how his early users were gullible idiots.

* There's no harm in retaining that kind of data. FB is handling the data responsibly because it's their competitive advantage. The only people who could get access are the government and we don't need to worry about the US government doing anything evil with it because that could never happen in the US.

* If you don't want to be on Facebook, don't use Facebook. Nevermind that Facebook will still track you with a shadow profile if any of your friends are on Facebook and staying off Facebook means you have no way to take down photos of yourself shared by others.

* If you don't want something about you ending up on Facebook, don't do it. If you have nothing to hide, you don't have to worry. And you can still ask for your information to be taken down if it does end up on Facebook.

* Facebook is just a company. They don't have any ulterior motive beyond creating a product users want. Market forces prevent Facebook from doing anything bad.

* Civil rights organizations like the EFF may be complaining about Facebook, but they just have a different opinion. They don't understand how Facebook works anyway.

* Who cares about politics? Facebook has a lot of interesting tech problems and it's a great opportunity. I can still go somewhere else if I decide I don't like it.

In other words: the Banality of Evil at work. Same reasoning that allows people to work for organisations like the NSA with a clean conscience.

Maybe I should add a disclaimer that all of the people I talked to were on the younger end of their 20s and most of them were likely drawn in by the opportunity to work on cool tech and the salary & benefits (like being hauled to conferences all over the world where speakers are often treated as celebrities).

Re: Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

#236

I cant speak for other countries, but why do American people seem to trust companies more than they do the government? I mean, it is completely known that companies are here to make money, and publicly traded companies are here to please their investors so they will do whatever it takes to do that. They study us, classify us, categorize us, manipulate us. They spend billions in research so they can make that 'perfect…

The relationship with the government and companies is different.

I moved to Norway a few years back, and married a Norwegian man. He has trust in government that me, as an American, simply doesn't have. But to be fair, nearly every time I've contacted government - even being searched at customs and going through immigration - has been a decently pleasant experience. Things just get done. It isn't perfect or anything, but it seems to work.

Whereas in the states, it seemed like every effort was made to screw me over - from the government. Companies, on the other hand, didn't want the bad publicity, so tended to treat folks slightly better.

Another aspect to this is things like health care and infrastructure and things like that. Part of the company relationship - jobs, anyway - is healthcare and decent pay. There isn't much of a safety net, so folks rely on companies' and churches' charities to keep them afloat. Americans see companies bring them the things for life where here, a lot of that stuff is simply provided by the government.

Re: Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

#237
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US doesn't have the privacy parts is WWII in memory. Where govt workers had to scramble to destroy what data they could before it was seized, where fire fighters let document storage burn as long as possible because it had census data, where others where forced to go through govt. Data to sentence neighbors to death, and similar hero/horror stories. I feel that the IT world is irresponsible in its collection of d…

> I feel that the IT world is irresponsible in its collection of data, and doesn't treat it as the liability it is. A lot of that is due to a lack of training. There's two major ways new people come into programming. 1. Go to college, get a computer science or engineering degree. 2. Self taught. Neither of those prepares you to deal with the ethics of information storage. I happened to have an entire course on the to…

You can be lucky if a college education in CS/SE teaches you about open source licensing, even more so if it deals with privacy in any way.

IMO every SE curriculum should contain a mandatory course looking into historical precedents how information was used in genocides and oppressive regimes (Nazi Germany and the German Democratic Republic are two of the most obvious examples but there are plenty others).

It's ridiculous how it took Trump to get elected for the liberal techies in my Twitter stream to realise that the US government has the power to do really bad things with all the data FB & friends have been collecting.

Re: Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never got why HN are angry at NSA since they spy on Americans. Spying on me (non-American) is okay, but spying on an American is wrong? I feel just as violated as any American by the thought of NSA spying me.

1. An American is anyone living in America, (?citizen or not?). 2. A US entity is tasked with info collection on the rest of the world (and is good at it). 3. US entities funded by the US have rules that prevent them from spying on those who fund them. Completely understandable and predictable.

We are discussing morality and ethics here. Almost all such scenarios can be explained and accounted for by the unsymmetrical distribution of power, including that of the spying of US agencies on American citizens. Indeed, it is completely understandable and predictable given the way the US government is structured. Governments(or any institutions for that matter) tend to act in their own self interest first and foremost, not of their citizens.

Re: Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

#239
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you’re an EU citizen, by law, all data about you is owned by you, and only by you. That includes personal data, but also any intellectual property you create, and is irrevocable (you can sell usage rights, but never the ownership rights). So, yes, they have a legal responsibility to not have that data about you, and you can at any point require any company to delete any and all data they have about you, or created…

That seems particularly absurd (which isn't to doubt you, but as much as I like the EU, they have some absurd policies). If you take a very narrow view of data as just bits on a hard drive somewhere, then this seems reasonable. But if the ownership right to your data is centered on the information itself, and not the company part, that raises issues. I can't simply destroy the memory of reading the message you wrote…

It's simple: you don't get to store data unless there's a technical requirement to keep that data stored to provide whatever service a user signed up for.

If a user didn't agree to their data to be stored in the first place, you don't get to retain it at all.

Whether you can discard data about a user "against their wishes" is likely covered by your terms of service. If you're a commercial hosting provider, there's probably a higher barrier than if you're a free doodling website. This has nothing to do with privacy, though.

If a user tells you to destroy their information, you need to destroy all information about them. There's obviously some wiggle room (e.g. if you keep a flat "view count" on an article, there's likely no way to argue that you should have to deduct the user's views but if you're keeping a record of "views" linked to user IDs the user ID may still be personally identifiable if it can be correlated with other data).

But most companies fail at deleting even the most obvious data. If you "delete" someone's account and they're unable to sign up with the same username or e-mail address again, you're likely not properly deleting information.

And that's if you even offer the option of deleting an account at all. It's horrifying how many (especially American but sometimes even EU) websites don't offer any such option at all or even simply offer an option to "close" an account, marking it as disabled but still retaining all data forever.

> Could I demand that the city/town/council/etc delete all footage of me ever?

Yes. Security cameras have strict regulations and generally recordings have to be destroyed eventually unless there's a good reason to keep them (e.g. they're part of a criminal investigation). This even extends to police cameras: if a police officer makes a recording (e.g. at a demonstration) and the recording isn't relevant to any investigation, you can ask for it to be destroyed ASAP (rather than waiting for them to destroy it). This also extends to other information like your name and address.

> I could commit fraud or launder money, and then demand that my bank destroy the evidence.

There are special laws for financial transactions and criminal investigations. There is such a thing as a "permanent record" but it is clearly defined what goes on it and what doesn't (and at what point it has to be destroyed). There are also very strict laws for handling such information, similarly to the strict PCI rules for handling credit card information.

You're basically arguing that privacy is a slippery slope but in reality it isn't. Privacy may be an "unnatural" concept but the expectation of privacy is a human right (like, officially, as part of the UN Declaration of Human Rights). The EU actually has very few "absurd" policies -- most of them only appear absurd when taken out of context. I assure you that EU privacy laws are not part of them.

Except for the cookie notice. That's not only ineffective but outright ridiculous.

Re: Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

#240
post #123
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

iirc it's the same for facebook: if they think you're using a fake name, you'll have to mail them your government-issued identification to get your account back.

And you can send them any blatantly fake/photoshopped ID, supposedly issued by a random country's government, and ultimately they'll accept it. If it doesn't work at first, just keep reposting it, and it will.

However that's a criminal offence in some countries (because you're forging official documents or maybe even impersonating someone else).
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