Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

#181

Post by GuiA » Fri, Dec 30, 2016, 10:46 AM UTC

malz wrote: post #143

ForrestN wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple, for example, seems quite committed to competing on the fact that they do not do this...

Apple has plenty of its own ethical issues, starting with 350,000 Chinese workers paid $1.90 an hour in dubious conditions.

Well, that particular issue is not really Apple's "own" - pretty much every single tech company on earth benefits from cheap foreign labor.

But then they'll tell you that these employees are very happy to work at such factories, because they make way more money than they would ever make on the farm in their hometown, and often work there a year or two to save as much money as they can before moving back to where they lived before.

(Apple actually does way better than most other companies on that front - see http://www.apple.com/supplier-responsibility/)

Does it open an entire rabbit hole about the ethics of globalization? Sure. Is it a strictly black and white issue? ...heh.

Re: Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

#182

Post by wiz21c » Fri, Dec 30, 2016, 10:54 AM UTC

closeparen wrote: post #84

ForrestN wrote: post #39

There must be many HNers who work at Facebook. Anyone willing to make a throwaway account and tell us how it feels from the inside for Facebook to be one the wrong side of so many ethical issues? It just seems like in so many dimensions they've been caught saying wrong things or appearing to outright lie, and I'm curious how developers who work for them think about aiding a company that seems to be so compromised at…

It's easy to forget on HN, but there is far from universal buy-in for the notion that having or collecting data on people is unethical. Some may even consider it noble to optimize and perfect the world and its institutions (including commerce, via efficient advertising) using large-scale personal data. The impulse to make something better by applying a database engine that you might feel for business processes, can j…

It's not because one doesn't think it's unethical that it is ethical. The very existence of the question implies that there is an ethical issue here.

Moreover, in the age of information, the one who knows more about the other becomes a potential predator (every country has secret services and spies).

Facebook (and others) knows a lot more about me than I do myself because their computers don't forget, because they analyze what I do in a way I don't.

Moreover Facebook can be tied to other companies or institutions with my consent.

So although the optimization might seem like a good idea, I think it also needs to be put in context. Is this really a good idea. Is optimizing advertisement a noble goal ? It's useful for the advertisers, true. But is it useful for their targets ?

Re: Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

#183

Post by walterstucco » Fri, Dec 30, 2016, 11:15 AM UTC

closeparen wrote: post #84

ForrestN wrote: post #39

There must be many HNers who work at Facebook. Anyone willing to make a throwaway account and tell us how it feels from the inside for Facebook to be one the wrong side of so many ethical issues? It just seems like in so many dimensions they've been caught saying wrong things or appearing to outright lie, and I'm curious how developers who work for them think about aiding a company that seems to be so compromised at…

It's easy to forget on HN, but there is far from universal buy-in for the notion that having or collecting data on people is unethical. Some may even consider it noble to optimize and perfect the world and its institutions (including commerce, via efficient advertising) using large-scale personal data. The impulse to make something better by applying a database engine that you might feel for business processes, can j…

yes it's always unethical. even more if you don't ask me or hide the fact that you're doing it. it's only acceptable if it is for public research.

Re: Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

#184

Post by walterstucco » Fri, Dec 30, 2016, 11:24 AM UTC

bigB wrote: post #126

harry8 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mafia defense? Really?

Why not, you are using their "free" services, and if you would care to read every word of the user agreements then it lays out exactly what they information they "collect". What they "collect" and what they "know" are two different things, using data analysis they can speculate many other aspects of a user with a pretty high degree of accuracy. They should not have to disclose this, the user has given them the data a…

mafia is free as well... you could not use their "service" but suddenly you realize you can't, because you're cut out (depending on where you live in Italy this could be literally true, you're just cut into pieces) if you don't.

Re: Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

#185

Post by walterstucco » Fri, Dec 30, 2016, 11:33 AM UTC

pipio21 wrote: post #57

ForrestN wrote: post #39

There must be many HNers who work at Facebook. Anyone willing to make a throwaway account and tell us how it feels from the inside for Facebook to be one the wrong side of so many ethical issues? It just seems like in so many dimensions they've been caught saying wrong things or appearing to outright lie, and I'm curious how developers who work for them think about aiding a company that seems to be so compromised at…

It is not wrong when you benefit from it. This is a human trait, people do not see the wrong on the things you benefit from. For example, did you ate beef or fish lately? When was the last time you thought about the animals that were killed in order for you to eat them. Have you seen the sacrifice of an animal needed for eating it. In Mongolia or Middle East nomads will sacrifice the animal in front of you before eat…

cows are even more stupid than you think. Your view probably comes from interacting with them as a child, being not very smart yourself. I've grown up in the italian country farming animals and I've seen cows stupidity literally kill them.

Re: Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

#186

Post by greggman » Fri, Dec 30, 2016, 11:33 AM UTC

bigB wrote: post #126

harry8 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mafia defense? Really?

Why not, you are using their "free" services, and if you would care to read every word of the user agreements then it lays out exactly what they information they "collect". What they "collect" and what they "know" are two different things, using data analysis they can speculate many other aspects of a user with a pretty high degree of accuracy. They should not have to disclose this, the user has given them the data a…

Giving information directly to facebook is one thing. The article is about FB gathering info not directly given to them.

Imagine the government put a policeman on every corner and they recorded the movements of every person in the neighborhood at all times. 4:36pm Mr. Jones walked to newsstand, 4:43pm Mrs Jones opens front door, looks around, closes front door. 4:45pm Mr. Smith dog starts barking. 4:51pm Unknown man shows up at Mr. and Mrs Miller's house. Mr Miller is not home. She invites him in. 5:01pm Mrs Wayne tends to her tomato garden.

Many (most?) people would feel creeped out to know they are being constantly watched and all activities logged. And yet Microsoft, Apple, Google, Facebook and a bunch of others are trying to do exactly that through your computer, your online activity and through your phone and eventually they'll probably also do it with cameras and mics

Re: Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

#187

Post by junto » Fri, Dec 30, 2016, 11:45 AM UTC

pwnna wrote: post #28

Speaking of which, perhaps someone can shed some light on the suggested friends feature. Many people suspected it uses GPS/Wifi to perform location based friend suggestions, as well as contact book uploading. However, it doesn't really explain my own case: I recently encountered a friend suggestion for someone that I only know online (IRC and later, Google Hangout). I don't really know who they are other than a name…

If they have your email address and they leaked it, then the same applies. You get reverse suggestions.

The sad thing is that you can be completely privacy conscious, but if just one of your friends, family or acquaintances uploads their contacts, and you're part of that upload, they've screwed your privacy via the back door.

Re: Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

#188

Post by NumberCruncher » Fri, Dec 30, 2016, 11:48 AM UTC

It is easy to forget that FB is a media company and as such it is not only making money by selling ads but also by manipulating the masses. They may focus today on serving ads making $3.6 billions annually. Tomorrow they may focus on something else for example on serving fake news for manipulatig elections and making 10x more. The data they collect is only a means to an end and I am afraid I won't like the end when it arrives.

Re: Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

#189

Post by dhruvghulati » Fri, Dec 30, 2016, 11:56 AM UTC

NumberCruncher wrote: post #188

It is easy to forget that FB is a media company and as such it is not only making money by selling ads but also by manipulating the masses. They may focus today on serving ads making $3.6 billions annually. Tomorrow they may focus on something else for example on serving fake news for manipulatig elections and making 10x more. The data they collect is only a means to an end and I am afraid I won't like the end when i…

Good point. Their whole business model relies on addiction to the intoxication of getting likes, shares, approval. If fake news stories that achieve those better do the trick, it goes against their business model to prevent it.

Re: Facebook Doesn’t Tell Users Everything It Really Knows About Them

#190

Post by junto » Fri, Dec 30, 2016, 11:58 AM UTC

dade_ wrote: post #44

politician wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, one should not believe that deleting your account removes the underlying data. The actual operation is probably more like, "set a bit that prevents anyone from logging in to this profile."

True, but I deleted my account 2 years ago, so at least they have a lot less info during that time. Also, I don't miss it at all, not even a little bit. I think it offers no value for my time, let alone data. I am not sure why I am still on Twitter, but Snapshot has been entertaining and LinkedIn invaluable.

I "deleted" my account three years ago, and just before doing so I changed my name to something nonsensical, and I created an alias email address on Outlook.com, set that as my primary email account on Facebook instead of my real Gmail email address, and then applied for a permanent deletion. I still have the confirmation of the"permanent deletion" from Facebook in that fake outlook.com account.

Back in November I started getting Facebook spam on my Gmail account, the "people you might know" your emails, and there were people I knew. I clicked on an unsubscribe link that led me to a login. Out of interest I used my Gmail account and reset my password, and within thirty seconds I was back in my account. It was exactly the same account as I had permanently deleted.

My assumption is that someone screwed up at Facebook and ran a query that updated permanently deleted accounts. I'm not sure what else could have caused this to start so spontaneously after years of peace.